Live data from Hacker News

Why American Construction Costs Are So High

pedestrianobservations.com

61–70 of 164 posts

Re: Why American Construction Costs Are So High

#61
I actually have a reasonably large amount of knowledge on this topic. I took a break after the dot com bubble burst through structural / construction engineering[0] before returning and my brother has been and continues to be in charge of some mega projects for EllisDon.

It is certainly worse in America, but it's not great in Canada either. The issue is this: There is no incentive alignment at multiple levels of these projects.

For example, I've worked with a couple great unions[1] but overall unions slow things down. There have been times where I've been reprimanded for lending a utility knife to open a pallet to a unionized worker.

It's too adversarial here and it really does slow things down. I've seen countless work-arounds to the rules just so employers can pay people that work harder more. For example, only valued employees are offered snow plowing work in the winter when construction is slow, but these tactics don't scale.

Then, on the other side, we do not pay our public servants enough and nor do we have high enough standards for their work. There are good public servants, to be true, but that's essentially random chance. It isn't because we've intentionally created a culture of achievement or excellence in our public works departments.

In both cases firing someone is too difficult. I'm not saying it should be easy, but I've known people that show up for work at 10:30am and leave, no joke, at 2:00pm. It's completely ridiculous.

Then there is the issue of building for the first time versus expanding or maintaining. First time construction is much easier. Standards are lower, there is less stuff in the way, everyone in the city is excited for the new thing so people make sacrifices. A new subway or sports stadium brings in business to the surrounding area, so part of the cost can be pushed on to local property owners in the area. Thirty years later when the soffit is cracked because subsurface water wasn't as expected there is none of that stuff. Just some angry commuters and shop owners wondering why it is taking so long.

I'm starting to think that capital projects, especially subterranean ones, are inherently worse than smaller alternatives. They're so expensive to maintain and once they're in there is no going back. I'd rather have lots of bike lanes or streetcars than subways. We could build a lot of bike lanes for the same cost of a subway, and even have them covered so snow and rain wouldn't be annoyances.

[0] I worked on lots of stuff for the TTC, including subway stations, and some stuff for the City of Toronto.

[1] Electrical worker union IBEW Local 353 was especially great because they pushed their employees to work hard. In exchange, they were able to negotiate default conditions like nine-hour, four-day work weeks. It fostered a sense of pride in their trade and work.

Re: Why American Construction Costs Are So High

#62
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replying to myself to add- I wonder if it extends down to the construction itself (not that a project would hire the workers abroad, but maybe mixing up supervisors/foreman/leads or sending them for training). Orders of magnitude smaller in scale but in my observations, even things like urban sidewalk, sewer and road construction seem to be conducted entirely differently in Germany, for example, vs North America. Is…

> urban sidewalk, sewer and road construction In many places in the US, these smaller infrastructure projects are done by city crews, not contractors. These crews employ friends and friends of friends hired by political managers, not people who know what they are doing. Where I live for example, the quality of any street paving done by the city vs. done by a private contractor is markedly inferior.

Why does this happen? I thought US was famous for favoring small government and zealous for tax dollars to be well spent.

Re: Why American Construction Costs Are So High

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am certainly of the left, but Labor Unions have been a huge contributor to so many problems in the United States. I'm not against people getting a living wage, ect but Labor Unions have always been about getting "theirs". A huge reason the US doesn't have universal healthcare is Labor Unions who preferred that they got good healthcare benefits from their work. A huge reason we have major infrastructure problems in…

I also stand at the far left of political spectrum and in my experience labor unions completely abuse their positions. I think it is way past time to find another way to provide decent wages to workers.

Why are unions even permitted on public infrastructure projects? All municipal projects that I have heard about in recent years had extensive work rules, safety, "living wage" requirements, etc. as conditions of the bid.

Re: Why American Construction Costs Are So High

#64
post #27

News that the Transbay Terminal is something like $300 million over budget should not come as a shock to anyone. We always knew the initial estimate was way under the real cost. Just like we never had a real cost for the Central Subway or the Bay Bridge or any other massive construction project. So get off it. In the world of civic projects, the first budget is really just a down payment. If people knew the real cost…

I hope the irony of this topic being discussed on a (mostly) software-related forum isn’t lost on anyone.

It is lost on me.

What do high construction costs have to do with HN?

Re: Why American Construction Costs Are So High

#65
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats purely corruption. I always explain to my argentinian friends, used to the petty corruption of putting friends and family in public positions, that the us does corruption at a much bigger scale: at the legal one. The transbay terminal is one of the biggest rip-offs ever. It cost the revenue of sales taxes of the city for years. And it doesn't even work, while the "transient" station that must have cost almost n…

> Thats purely corruption. I always explain to my argentinian friends, used to the petty corruption of putting friends and family in public positions, that the us does corruption at a much bigger scale: at the legal one. Oh, Willie Brown did that too. He appointed his lover to two state commissions (he was the speaker of the California Assembly at the time), then helped her become district attorney in San Francisco.

She's quite talented.

Re: Why American Construction Costs Are So High

#66
post #64
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope the irony of this topic being discussed on a (mostly) software-related forum isn’t lost on anyone.

It is lost on me. What do high construction costs have to do with HN?

inability to predict the time and effort needed

Re: Why American Construction Costs Are So High

#67
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replying to myself to add- I wonder if it extends down to the construction itself (not that a project would hire the workers abroad, but maybe mixing up supervisors/foreman/leads or sending them for training). Orders of magnitude smaller in scale but in my observations, even things like urban sidewalk, sewer and road construction seem to be conducted entirely differently in Germany, for example, vs North America. Is…

> urban sidewalk, sewer and road construction In many places in the US, these smaller infrastructure projects are done by city crews, not contractors. These crews employ friends and friends of friends hired by political managers, not people who know what they are doing. Where I live for example, the quality of any street paving done by the city vs. done by a private contractor is markedly inferior.

Typically repair is done by the municipality, and quality varies quite a bit for mostly opaque reasons. New construction is done by private contractors, and quality is determined mostly by the inspection agency. Whatever they let the contractor get away with, the contractor will do.

Re: Why American Construction Costs Are So High

#68

Regarding point 9 about the inability to look outside North America. I always wondered why it seems transit agencies haven't looked to bring in teams of people who have managed/built successful projects in Europe, Asia, or even closer like Mexico City. California HSR for example went to solicit bids from foreign operators and selected Deutsche Bahn/German Railways. But AFAIK the initial design work/RFP/proposals were…

There's probably a tradeoff between the potential expertise of a foreign experienced operator and the potential domestic economic stimulation.

Re: Why American Construction Costs Are So High

#70
post #37

Ok, this is worth reading for the section on “Incuriosity” alone. It’s worth quoting in its entirety but too long to paste here, so I’ll just say if you do nothing else, click through to the article and read that section.

That part stood out to me, too. It's a phenomenon I've been noticing for a long time when talking to Americans (even here on HN), but I think this is the first time I've seen an American recognize it.

That's because most Americans have never traveled overseas, let alone lived and worked there. The few of us who have, often notice the same thing.
Post reply on HN