Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How to Catch a Cheater

nerdlife.net

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 99 posts

Re: How to Catch a Cheater

#11

Post by wwortiz »

michael_dorfman wrote: post #7
wwortiz wrote: post #4

> We were explicitly told that searching online for answers to homeworks was forbidden. I might be in the minority but I am of the opinion that if you are grading students on something that can be easily obtained through a google search you probably shouldn't be grading them on that.

What is your justification? Anything that can be found on Google isn't worth learning? Just to take a trivial example: take a look at Project Euler. There's no question in my mind that working through those exercises is a valuable learning experience, and (in the context of a programming course) would be worth grading someone on-- even though the answers are readily available to anyone who searches for them.

>What is your justification? Anything that can be found on Google isn't worth learning?

How in the world you got that out of my comment is beyond me.

People cheat with resources available it is a sad fact but it is true. You are being unfair if you decide to punish honest students by grading on something that is easily available (I've seen homework grades as 30% off class grades before).

Re: How to Catch a Cheater

#12

Post by pohl »

wwortiz wrote: post #4

> We were explicitly told that searching online for answers to homeworks was forbidden. I might be in the minority but I am of the opinion that if you are grading students on something that can be easily obtained through a google search you probably shouldn't be grading them on that.

I suspect you're actually in the majority. I bet that, rather, the minority position is that the instructor should create whatever conditions they want to so that they can exercise the students as they see fit - and that the students should extend enough respect to consider why those conditions are being created. This is my view.

Replace the teacher with a coach in a weightlifting class. One day he wants you to lift some freeweights, but he wants you to lift them in a particular way that does not use your legs. (Let's say he's having you do "military presses".) "Nonsense!" says the modern student, who already knows that it's best to lift heavy things with their legs. "Why shouldn't I be able to use this awesome resource (my legs) that's right here at my disposal!?"

Well maybe - just maybe - the coach wants to target your deltoids. Hmmm.

Enter Professor Luis von Ahn, who wants you to do homework without using google. Perhaps that is because he doesn't want you to target and improve your research abilities. It could be that, rather, he would like you to exercise and sculpt your ability to work problems from first principles. The professor may be aware that practice makes permanent, and homework is intended to get students to strengthen specific things, and that taking the easy way out robs the student of the intended benefit.

That's how I approach being a student, and so I grant that when sensei says wax-on, paint-uh-fence, and sand-uh-flo that he's got some idea of what I should be working on. But that's an old, old attitude that exists only in a handful of Hollywood movies these days. So that's why I'm betting you're actually in the majority.

By the way, the instructor here is an awesome guy. Anybody who hasn't heard of Luis von Ahn should do themselves a favor and watch his presentation on Human Computation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtFroEJN1nI

Re: How to Catch a Cheater

#14

Post by wwortiz »

Xk wrote: post #9
wwortiz wrote: post #4

> We were explicitly told that searching online for answers to homeworks was forbidden. I might be in the minority but I am of the opinion that if you are grading students on something that can be easily obtained through a google search you probably shouldn't be grading them on that.

I agree with you for the most part, but nearly all introductory courses must have content that is easily available online. Consider teaching students how to write a recursive method. What would their first assignment be? List length? "find length of list" Factorial? "factorial recursive" Fibonacci? "fibonacci recursive" GCD? "program gcd" There are only so many simple recursive procedures, and I guarantee nearly all…

Okay sure those are simple examples that are probably available in large quantities online, but why should that homework assignment count towards a grade is more of my point. Professors can assign homework that isn't graded and the ones who actually do the assignment will be the ones that learn.

Re: How to Catch a Cheater

#16

Post by bkrausz »

spicyj wrote: post #8
bkrausz wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The early homeworks in this class (Great Theoretical Ideas in Computer Science) were basically puzzles, where if you've seen the style of problem before you more or less knew the answer. The goal was to expose us to these types of problems and teach us how to think them through properly. It was definitely one of the most fun courses I've taken.

15-251 isn't a freshman-year course, is it?

It was either 2nd semester Freshman year or 1st semester Sophomore year, honestly I don't remember which it was.

Re: How to Catch a Cheater

#17

Post by flogic »

bkrausz wrote: post #6
aplusbi wrote: post #3

That sounds terrible. If I saw something like that, I'd probably do the problem, then look up more information on it. I'd probably start with wikipedia but move onto google (well, ddg these days) if I didn't find anything. The sort of policy that does not allow one to do basic research is pretty anti-academic if you ask me.

The early homeworks in this class (Great Theoretical Ideas in Computer Science) were basically puzzles, where if you've seen the style of problem before you more or less knew the answer. The goal was to expose us to these types of problems and teach us how to think them through properly. It was definitely one of the most fun courses I've taken.

That's one of those critical to include details. Otherwise the story makes the prof sound like a douche.

Re: How to Catch a Cheater

#18

Post by ecaradec »

I remember professors doing that kind of things when I was a student then declaring that students didn't studied well, didn't followed their rules, cheated, or anything else.

I don't think it help students to progress it any way. It just feel like you are fighting against a bureaucraty which has no rules, or which has rules that will only be revealed until it's too late. What they are creating is traps, and traps don't teach anything because they are random.

Please teachers, read Richard Feynman stuff, he had such a joy to teach his students and stop bullying your students.

Re: How to Catch a Cheater

#19

Post by sachitgupta »

Wow - this seemed strangely familiar, until I realized I was in the class! What sucks is that a lot of people found the solution and showed it to other classmates, but only the 1 person who found it got into trouble. (No, I wasn't one of the students who found it).

Re: How to Catch a Cheater

#20

Post by Xk »

wwortiz wrote: post #14
Xk wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you for the most part, but nearly all introductory courses must have content that is easily available online. Consider teaching students how to write a recursive method. What would their first assignment be? List length? "find length of list" Factorial? "factorial recursive" Fibonacci? "fibonacci recursive" GCD? "program gcd" There are only so many simple recursive procedures, and I guarantee nearly all…

Okay sure those are simple examples that are probably available in large quantities online, but why should that homework assignment count towards a grade is more of my point. Professors can assign homework that isn't graded and the ones who actually do the assignment will be the ones that learn.

Agreed, but that all but eliminates graded homework for the first several years of college (not that that's a bad thing, just that I don't think colleges would approve).
Post reply on HN