I am extremely suspicious of wikileaks and its motivation. For example, they believe that WMD were found in Iraq. I won't be surprised if we find out in 15 years the whole thing was a DOD disinformation campaign.
Wikileaks promises release 7x bigger than Iraq War Logs, asks for donations
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Re: Wikileaks promises release 7x bigger than Iraq War Logs, asks for donations
#12One of the most disappointing things about Wikileaks is that the release of documents about the U.S. torturing people and the war going badly hasn't had any adverse affect on the support for the war. It's proof that people just don't care. It's depressing. The need by governments to keep everything secret is a bit irrational. People don't care.
The main thing about the Iraq War Logs was that there was nothing particularly new or surprising or shocking. Details about incidents, but nothing war critics didn't already assume had happened many times. When someone says "We've got horrible things to reveal", your imagination fills in the blanks, extrapolating from what we've already found out to even more horrible extremes. But then what Wikileaks revealed didn't…
What you say makes sense but it is still sad.
With regard to torture, first there was denial. Then we were told it was rouge elements of the military that did these things. Then came rationalization. We had to do it. After Wikileaks proved beyond a doubt the scope of the crimes there's apathy. The country has gotten so apathetic that Bush admits to his crimes in his memoirs and yet has no fear of prosecution.
It's sad that many Americans see ourselves as a force of good and when confronted with irrefutable proof of our crimes the nation, for the most part, just shrugged it's shoulders. I agree with your analysis. I wish reality were different though.
Re: Wikileaks promises release 7x bigger than Iraq War Logs, asks for donations
#13Hello kind Sers,
I am having the very good pleasure of speaking to you as Head of Wikileaks site for bad information on countries! Our previous Head has been removed for bad touching of females leaving Wikileaks with all his 2,800,000 seekrits but we cannot touch them!
All his seekrits are belong to you because our panel decided your are super most trustworthy of all on teh internets. All you must be doing to access your seekrits is by making donation first of small $10,000.00 and seekrits are in you hard drive!
Re: Wikileaks promises release 7x bigger than Iraq War Logs, asks for donations
#14One of the most disappointing things about Wikileaks is that the release of documents about the U.S. torturing people and the war going badly hasn't had any adverse affect on the support for the war. It's proof that people just don't care. It's depressing. The need by governments to keep everything secret is a bit irrational. People don't care.
The Wikileaks Iraq leak (apparently) predominately documented torture by Iraqis. If anything, it enhanced the US narrative, in part by documenting belligerent activity by Iran, and in part by creating a contrast between our professional military and their abusive militias.
Part of the US narrative about Iraq (a part that I completely believe) holds that however bad Iraq is now, it's got to be better than decennial waves of genocide punctuated by monthly feedings of dissidents through industrial paper shredders.
I'm not a supporter of the Iraq war, but I'm not naive enough to think that Iraq was a playground before we got there. I have a hunch I may speak for a fair portion of the "depressing" majority of people who are not outraged by this last disclosure.
Re: Wikileaks promises release 7x bigger than Iraq War Logs, asks for donations
#15One of the most disappointing things about Wikileaks is that the release of documents about the U.S. torturing people and the war going badly hasn't had any adverse affect on the support for the war. It's proof that people just don't care. It's depressing. The need by governments to keep everything secret is a bit irrational. People don't care.
documents about the U.S. torturing people
Do you have a specific example of this? Every instance I have seen or heard about refers to the actions of Iraqi security forces.
hasn't had any adverse affect on the support for the war. It's proof that people just don't care.
At the risk of being mistaken for some kind of right-wing buffoon, I have to say that what I've gleaned from the Iraq war leak has had an adverse effect on my opposition to it. The sketch of what Iraq will be after the US withdraws is there and I'm not convinced it's any better. I still don't know what to do with that, but perhaps it's a sign of why many or most people don't care: there is no simple answer. That is, you can't just release a bunch of documents and end a war, because such documents will only give you a higher resolution picture of a complex reality.
I think that Wikileaks has sort of hobbled itself by relying on document bombs and overt political objectives instead of just focusing on sensemaking. They get a lot more attention this way, but much less capacity to change minds.
The need by governments to keep everything secret is a bit irrational. People don't care.
You're basing that on the mistaken assumption that the intent of all military secrecy is to withhold information from the citizens it serves and not enemies current and potential. The widespread appeal of that assumption is what WIkileaks depends on for donations but it's still bonkers.
Re: Wikileaks promises release 7x bigger than Iraq War Logs, asks for donations
#16... In October the group released a package of almost 400,000 documents called the Iraq War Logs in coordination with major commercial media organisations. 7 x 400,000 = 2.8m documents? You don't change people's minds by releasing 2.8 million pages of documentation, you change it by repeating your slogan over and over and over.
Wikileaks leaking such documents makes it possible for the actual media to make fresh and truthful presentations with their data (thus maybe repeating your slogan again and again).
Re: Wikileaks promises release 7x bigger than Iraq War Logs, asks for donations
#17... In October the group released a package of almost 400,000 documents called the Iraq War Logs in coordination with major commercial media organisations. 7 x 400,000 = 2.8m documents? You don't change people's minds by releasing 2.8 million pages of documentation, you change it by repeating your slogan over and over and over.
> You don't change people's minds by releasing 2.8 million pages of documentation, you change it by repeating your slogan over and over and over.
Welcome to my quotes file. Do you want a name on that in case I use it sometime?
Re: Wikileaks promises release 7x bigger than Iraq War Logs, asks for donations
#18One of the most disappointing things about Wikileaks is that the release of documents about the U.S. torturing people and the war going badly hasn't had any adverse affect on the support for the war. It's proof that people just don't care. It's depressing. The need by governments to keep everything secret is a bit irrational. People don't care.
Can you recommend a good analysis of the Iraq leak?
Re: Wikileaks promises release 7x bigger than Iraq War Logs, asks for donations
#19One of the most disappointing things about Wikileaks is that the release of documents about the U.S. torturing people and the war going badly hasn't had any adverse affect on the support for the war. It's proof that people just don't care. It's depressing. The need by governments to keep everything secret is a bit irrational. People don't care.
documents about the U.S. torturing people Do you have a specific example of this? Every instance I have seen or heard about refers to the actions of Iraqi security forces. hasn't had any adverse affect on the support for the war. It's proof that people just don't care. At the risk of being mistaken for some kind of right-wing buffoon, I have to say that what I've gleaned from the Iraq war leak has had an adverse effe…
Long before the Wikileaks report there was the report by Major General Taguba which included in it the fact that a man was forced to rape his son while under U.S. custody. In the Wikileaks documents we come to know that the Iraqi forces routinely torture. Our leaders knew this and yet did little to stop it. They refused to allow Red Cross personnel to have access.
One can hide behind the fact that it was Iraqis doing this but given our sway over their forces this doesn't hold water with me. We did nothing to stop these abuses. We turned over detainees to people we knew were going to torture. It makes us just as guilty as the ones who were doing the torture. Getting other people to do the dirty work is no less reprehensible.
The leaked documents show that our forces deliberately killed people while in the process of surrenduring. Our forces have executed civilians. The picture painted by these document is indeed a bleak one. It also demonstrates that we, as a nation, have no moral authority. The meme that we are good and they are bad is a false one that has been destroyed by our actions in this war in the minds of the rest of the world. It just hasn't sunk in with the average American.
I don't advocate that we leave Iraq right now. It's a mess. I do advocate that generals and former Presidents be arrested for war crimes though. It's sad to me as an American that we have sunk so low so fast.
Re: Wikileaks promises release 7x bigger than Iraq War Logs, asks for donations
#20One of the most disappointing things about Wikileaks is that the release of documents about the U.S. torturing people and the war going badly hasn't had any adverse affect on the support for the war. It's proof that people just don't care. It's depressing. The need by governments to keep everything secret is a bit irrational. People don't care.
The Wikileaks Iraq leak (apparently) predominately documented torture by Iraqis. If anything, it enhanced the US narrative, in part by documenting belligerent activity by Iran, and in part by creating a contrast between our professional military and their abusive militias. Part of the US narrative about Iraq (a part that I completely believe) holds that however bad Iraq is now, it's got to be better than decennial wa…
Iraq was a mess before we invaded. Saddam was brutal. We, apparently, have been less so but not by too much. It's a pretty low standard to have that we just be better than Saddam. We should also keep in mind that in the 80's it was we who supplied Saddam. It was we who turned a blind eye when he was using chemical weapons to gas Kurds.
Our whole involvement with Iraq over the past few decades has been revolting.