Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 131 posts

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#11

Post by wgerard »

rb808 wrote: post #7

I'd like to know if anyone can run and start a new life somewhere else. Is it possible? I suspect Bail is an anachronism in these modern times. 100 years ago you could jump on a train and virtually disappear, never be seen again. Now cops can track people's phone to see exactly where they are at any time of the day.

Eh, while that's theoretically true, nobody's gonna invest the kind of resources you're talking about to catch someone accused of e.g. petty larceny.

Though I get your point is more about crimes that would, well, be worth trying to disappear over, still worth pointing out that you can effectively "disappear" across state/country lines depending on the severity of your crime.

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#12

Post by tdb7893 »

sokoloff wrote: post #9
mnm1 wrote: post #5

With the ubiquitous tracking technology we have these days, why are we still putting innocent people in jail? It's barbaric and unjust. Give them a GPS bracelet and let them go home or wherever they want. Or have we given up completely on the "innocent until proven guilty" idea?

Suppose someone is accused of a mass shooting, murdering their neighbor, beating up their spouse, carjacking, or armed robbery. Right then, off you go; just wear this bracelet... Doesn't seem particularly reasonable to not incarcerate anyone before trial.

I think it makes sense to jail people who are an immediate harm to others like serial killers and some spousal abusers. Jailing for even things like armed robbery and carjacking seem often unnecessary if you can track people, very few people will keep carjacking and armed robbing while under surveillance like that.

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#13

Post by rtkwe »

rb808 wrote: post #7

I'd like to know if anyone can run and start a new life somewhere else. Is it possible? I suspect Bail is an anachronism in these modern times. 100 years ago you could jump on a train and virtually disappear, never be seen again. Now cops can track people's phone to see exactly where they are at any time of the day.

It's definitely a lot harder but not impossible to disappear today. If you have cash to avoid traceable spending you can still disappear today reasonably well.

Part of bail is also just to reduce the effort required between the arrest stage and the trial/judgement phase. I think ultimately some kind of monitored release via something like an ankle bracelet (for those at higher risk of trying to run), programs to make it easier for people to remember and make their court dates (text/call reminders and some kind of transit assistance) (for those at low risk of bolting) and just pretrial detention for violoent and dangerous arrestees will provide a cheaper and more just system eventually.

Unfortunately there's a lot of incentives against pretrial release because every time they get it wrong and the person commits another crime while on this release inevitably gets blamed on the system and it's VERY hard to argue the diffuse benefits of all the people who's lives weren't permanently ruined in the face of someone getting hurt.

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#14

Post by ars »

"Consider two defendants with similar backgrounds who were accused of a nonviolent property crime or misdemeanor. By the luck of the draw, one faced a lenient judge and was released, and the other got a different judge who set an unaffordable bail amount

The detained arrestee was more likely to appear in court for his trial.

But he was also more likely to be convicted."

OR

The Judge knew what he was doing in setting a higher bail for the one who was convicted.

This whole narrative hinges on the study authors knowing more than the Judge what a proper level of bail is - despite not actually being there.

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#15

Post by DoreenMichele »

I wish we would focus more on reweaving our tattered social fabric so people can access housing, healthcare, etc affordably and consistently. We also need to make it easier for parents to put their kids first. From what I gather, money spent on preschool reduces money spent on prison down the line as just one example of the direct and known connection between how we treat our kids and crime statistics.

I'm not saying we shouldn't try to address problems with our prisons and courts, etc. But I don't like the general trend in the world to improve fire fighting practices without doing fire prevention while frequently putting out the fire with gasoline, so to speak.

"Fire fighting" gets you hailed as a hero. "Fire prevention" tends to be dismissed as "You didn't really do anything. You just got lucky." Humans are super bad at counting the disasters that didn't happen, but should/would have. So "fire fighting" is more attractive, "sexy" and heroic.

But it's a really sick system that actively creates problems in order to give a few people the role of "hero" on the backs of the many victims of the system. And I would very much like to see less of that.

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#16

Post by jdietrich »

sokoloff wrote: post #9
mnm1 wrote: post #5

With the ubiquitous tracking technology we have these days, why are we still putting innocent people in jail? It's barbaric and unjust. Give them a GPS bracelet and let them go home or wherever they want. Or have we given up completely on the "innocent until proven guilty" idea?

Suppose someone is accused of a mass shooting, murdering their neighbor, beating up their spouse, carjacking, or armed robbery. Right then, off you go; just wear this bracelet... Doesn't seem particularly reasonable to not incarcerate anyone before trial.

Posting a cash bail has no bearing on your risk to the public. If a judge thinks that you pose a high risk, you shouldn't be offered bail at any price; if you don't pose a significant risk, you should be offered bail conditional on your behaviour during the bail period rather than your ability to pay.

The vast majority of people on bail aren't mass murderers or armed robbers, they're petty criminals and drug addicts. If you think a shoplifter might reoffend while on bail, then make his bail conditional on staying away from the local mall. If you think a domestic abuser might reoffend while on bail, then make his bail conditional on having no contact with his spouse. If you think that someone might abscond, then make his bail conditional on GPS tagging or regularly signing on at a police station.

Bail conditions (with suitable monitoring) are fairer and more effective than cash bail.

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#17

Post by cannabisfarmer »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #15

I wish we would focus more on reweaving our tattered social fabric so people can access housing, healthcare, etc affordably and consistently. We also need to make it easier for parents to put their kids first. From what I gather, money spent on preschool reduces money spent on prison down the line as just one example of the direct and known connection between how we treat our kids and crime statistics. I'm not saying…

You should be a politician, I wonder if you are doing something in that direction? You've very good understanding of what needs to be done and who are affected.

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#18

Post by candiodari »

Someone1234 wrote: post #3

This is a very interesting data driven article that will make you depressed. I recommend it. > Technological solutions, like electronic anklets that monitor an individual’s whereabouts, are another option. Even sending text-message reminders to show up in court makes it more likely that a defendant will do so. All these options are cheaper than incarceration. I hope this gains popularity. Cash bail discriminates agai…

The article also proves things that people were unwilling to accept in this article:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19253333

There people always made the point that human judges making just decisions based on fairness. Well, clearly not.

Algorithms would be another, better way to know exactly what makes the determination if a person should be released awaiting trial or not.

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#19

Post by wolco »

wgerard wrote: post #11
rb808 wrote: post #7

I'd like to know if anyone can run and start a new life somewhere else. Is it possible? I suspect Bail is an anachronism in these modern times. 100 years ago you could jump on a train and virtually disappear, never be seen again. Now cops can track people's phone to see exactly where they are at any time of the day.

Eh, while that's theoretically true, nobody's gonna invest the kind of resources you're talking about to catch someone accused of e.g. petty larceny. Though I get your point is more about crimes that would, well, be worth trying to disappear over, still worth pointing out that you can effectively "disappear" across state/country lines depending on the severity of your crime.

Parking tickets will only follow you so far.

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#20

Post by nickthemagicman »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #15

I wish we would focus more on reweaving our tattered social fabric so people can access housing, healthcare, etc affordably and consistently. We also need to make it easier for parents to put their kids first. From what I gather, money spent on preschool reduces money spent on prison down the line as just one example of the direct and known connection between how we treat our kids and crime statistics. I'm not saying…

This is brilliant and very well put.

Education, strong families, reducing inequality, communities, all do wonders for people more than 'fixing the bail systems'.

Its like endlessly troubleshooting bugs in a software program vs building it properly.

Post reply on HN