France Plans 5% Digital Tax as Governments Chase Internet Giants • Hacker News Board

Re: France Plans 5% Digital Tax as Governments Chase Internet Giants

#271

Post by sbacic » Mon, Mar 04, 2019, 9:36 AM UTC

anoncake wrote: post #231

briandear wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a small country can afford a 0% tax, why shouldn’t they avail themselves to that competitive advantage? Unified tax rates amount to a tariff on more fiscally competitive countries.

The very post you replied to answers your question: You get a race to the bottom. Competition pushes taxes lower than they would be if the democratic government of each country could set them freely as they believe is fair.

I don't think there's a single government that sets taxes based on fairness. Rather, I'd wager that most governments set taxes as high as they can without suffering consequences such as economic slowdowns or capital flight.

Re: France Plans 5% Digital Tax as Governments Chase Internet Giants

#272

Post by sbacic » Mon, Mar 04, 2019, 9:42 AM UTC

anoncake wrote: post #269

sbacic wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It most certainly does - both to its citizens and the companies that do business there. Otherwise, the implicit idea that your taxes pay for public services is chucked out of the window and we're left with taxation as just another expense to be avoided if possible.

Only to its citizens. Not to companies. The idea behind taxes is not to pay for public services, but for whatever the citizens want to use them for (which happens to include public services of course). Companies aren't allowed to vote for a reason.

Keep in mind that companies are not just large multinationals but also small mom and pop stores, freelancers and everything in between. I hope you understand how deeply hypocritical it is to tout paying taxes as a moral obligation while at the same time refusing to be held accountable for how that money is being spent or denying companies a voice.

Re: France Plans 5% Digital Tax as Governments Chase Internet Giants

#273

Post by anoncake » Mon, Mar 04, 2019, 9:47 AM UTC

sbacic wrote: post #272

anoncake wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only to its citizens. Not to companies. The idea behind taxes is not to pay for public services, but for whatever the citizens want to use them for (which happens to include public services of course). Companies aren't allowed to vote for a reason.

Keep in mind that companies are not just large multinationals but also small mom and pop stores, freelancers and everything in between. I hope you understand how deeply hypocritical it is to tout paying taxes as a moral obligation while at the same time refusing to be held accountable for how that money is being spent or denying companies a voice.

And many companies are owned by citizens whose opinions actually matter just as much as those who don't own a company.

> I hope you understand how deeply hypocritical it is to tout paying taxes as a moral obligation while at the same time refusing to be held accountable for how that money is being spent or denying companies a voice.

There's nothing hypocritical about not wanting corporations to have even more power than they already have.

Re: France Plans 5% Digital Tax as Governments Chase Internet Giants

#274

Post by anoncake » Mon, Mar 04, 2019, 9:50 AM UTC

sbacic wrote: post #271

anoncake wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The very post you replied to answers your question: You get a race to the bottom. Competition pushes taxes lower than they would be if the democratic government of each country could set them freely as they believe is fair.

I don't think there's a single government that sets taxes based on fairness. Rather, I'd wager that most governments set taxes as high as they can without suffering consequences such as economic slowdowns or capital flight.

A democratic government does what its citizens want it to do. Presumably they want taxes to be fair. If setting taxes to a fair level would cause capital flight, then something's wrong about our economic system.

Re: France Plans 5% Digital Tax as Governments Chase Internet Giants

#275

Post by DomreiRoam » Mon, Mar 04, 2019, 10:00 AM UTC

marsokod wrote: post #227

sbacic wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the imbalance is that an Irish company is more competitive than a French one, then no, not really.

The problem is not that Ireland is a country using its taxes more efficiently than another. The problem is that one country can offer a much lower rate that is only viable for them if companies make their entire EU business as if it was happening in this country. Let say you are Luxembourg, and the average tax is 30% of your profit in the EU. Luxembourg is roughly .1% of the EU population. Assuming an ideal world, a…

"so that they can artificially put all the profit from its EU operations in Luxembourg" That is illegal because your accounting and document are not supported by reality. But it is difficult to prove it.

Re: France Plans 5% Digital Tax as Governments Chase Internet Giants

#276

Post by sbacic » Mon, Mar 04, 2019, 10:02 AM UTC

anoncake wrote: post #274

sbacic wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there's a single government that sets taxes based on fairness. Rather, I'd wager that most governments set taxes as high as they can without suffering consequences such as economic slowdowns or capital flight.

A democratic government does what its citizens want it to do. Presumably they want taxes to be fair. If setting taxes to a fair level would cause capital flight, then something's wrong about our economic system.

> A democratic government does what its citizens want it to do. Presumably they want taxes to be fair.

Both of these statements are based on very big presumptions indeed.

Re: France Plans 5% Digital Tax as Governments Chase Internet Giants

#277

Post by growlist » Mon, Mar 04, 2019, 10:08 AM UTC

anoncake wrote: post #269

sbacic wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It most certainly does - both to its citizens and the companies that do business there. Otherwise, the implicit idea that your taxes pay for public services is chucked out of the window and we're left with taxation as just another expense to be avoided if possible.

Only to its citizens. Not to companies. The idea behind taxes is not to pay for public services, but for whatever the citizens want to use them for (which happens to include public services of course). Companies aren't allowed to vote for a reason.

You seem to be labouring under the delusion that voting actually changes anything.

Re: France Plans 5% Digital Tax as Governments Chase Internet Giants

#278

Post by growlist » Mon, Mar 04, 2019, 10:11 AM UTC

anoncake wrote: post #234

rb808 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make it sound as if taxation is a good thing. In much of the world capitalism, retained profits and growing the economy is used to make people wealthier. The countries with fastest growth and highest employment, healthiest companies tend to have lower tax rates (China, USA). Countries that treat companies as if they a problem that need more tax (much of Western Europe) tend to have high unemployment and poorly pe…

> Countries that treat companies as if they a problem that need more tax (much of Western Europe) tend to have high unemployment and poorly performing economies where young people leave. Maybe countries with high unemployment and poorly performing economies have a problem with companies paying too little taxes.

If only it were that simple.

Re: France Plans 5% Digital Tax as Governments Chase Internet Giants

#279

Post by apexalpha » Mon, Mar 04, 2019, 10:11 AM UTC

grondilu wrote: post #263

I'm French and I love Amazon. I buy many stuff on Amazon that I have absolutely no idea how I could get them otherwise. That news makes me anxious about Amazon deciding not to offer its service in France one day.

Then there will be a competitor that will offer it. In NL we have a local grown Bol.com that does exactly what Amazon does (minus AWS).

Would it be fair if Amazon started competing while they pay no tax here when Bol.com does? I don't think so.

Re: France Plans 5% Digital Tax as Governments Chase Internet Giants

#280

Post by anoncake » Mon, Mar 04, 2019, 10:22 AM UTC

growlist wrote: post #277

anoncake wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only to its citizens. Not to companies. The idea behind taxes is not to pay for public services, but for whatever the citizens want to use them for (which happens to include public services of course). Companies aren't allowed to vote for a reason.

You seem to be labouring under the delusion that voting actually changes anything.

Not enough. In part, that's because companies have to much of a voice.