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Is Ethical A.I. Even Possible?

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Re: Is Ethical A.I. Even Possible?

#71
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Though I agree in principle, I think tools can’t be considered in isolation, but rather in the context of iterated game theory. Is Instagram inherently evil? Obviously not; but through the lens of pre-existing human social dynamics, including status competition, mating drives, social signaling, etc, the capabilities introduced by that particular tool almost inevitably lead to the perverse incentives of lifestyle faca…

AI isn’t s player it’s as dumb as a rock. The players are still humans that build, maintain, operate and can switch it off.

AI today is that dumb, but I think the parent comment is discussing a theoretical AGI nearing or possessing consciousness. A bit irrelevant for today's moral conversation on AI but a very interesting one down the line if we ever do get to that point.

Re: Is Ethical A.I. Even Possible?

#72
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. The question should be "Is a (universal) Ethical person even possible?". And of course, it entirely depends on whose culture and historical norms you're looking at and who is doing the judging. So really, no.

Yet murder is a punishable offense and people seem just fine with that. The law is an accepted and used set of actions that are considered bad, with associated repercussions. It's a best effort and it _works_. Why would AI have to reinvent the wheel here?

Well, most moral philosophies usually hold some very basic things as wrong, murder and stealing being among them.

However, the issue is that it's very culturally dependent on WHY it's seen as wrong, and it's the reason behind WHY something is seen as wrong that the more complex elements of ethics are built on.

A utilitarian vs a deontologist vs a virtue theorist vs a follower of almost any religion vs a supporter of god knows how many other moral theories I don't know about would all have a different answer to that, and different answers to which cases killing or stealing or anything else might potentially be justified/right.

And you can see that reflected in legal systems of different countries right now. Some countries have self defence as basically 'anything is permissible if they're intruding on your property' where some have it so you need to use reasonable force. Some countries consider it fair to let the government kill criminals via the death penalty, and others don't.

The difficulty isn't defining whether murder or theft or what not in its most blatant forms is wrong, since most ethical frameworks will state it is. It's trying to define the many, many edge cases that people don't agree on, and which many countries/states/societies take different approaches to.

Re: Is Ethical A.I. Even Possible?

#73
post #2

Ethical AI is hard, but so are ethical laws, ethical taxation, and ethical advertising, to name a few more ubiquitous things than AI. The real answer here is that ethics is hard, and even if you know ethics and can get some agreement, getting humans to be ethical is even harder. AI only introduces a new danger, but at the current complexity of AI I don't think its any more significant in effect than the other ethical…

I think AI is especially important for it to be used ethically because it has an unrivaled capacity to be used unethically

Re: Is Ethical A.I. Even Possible?

#74
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. The question should be "Is a (universal) Ethical person even possible?". And of course, it entirely depends on whose culture and historical norms you're looking at and who is doing the judging. So really, no.

Yet murder is a punishable offense and people seem just fine with that. The law is an accepted and used set of actions that are considered bad, with associated repercussions. It's a best effort and it _works_. Why would AI have to reinvent the wheel here?

   No it's not. There are cases where taking a human life is considered acceptable and ethical. Killing an abductor that threatens to kill many people and negotiations have failed  is considered ethical and not punishable by law.
   Now if you assume that murder is the case where an unlawful act happened then you've stopped querying for ethics and your question becomes what is lawful which is again extremely ill-defined.

Re: Is Ethical A.I. Even Possible?

#75
post #18
post #4

No. And if you think yes, you are probably deceiving yourself about your own ethical abilities.

What is unethical about a farmer using AI to figure out the best arrangement of his crops to maximize the food he produces, maintain his land quality, and minimize his environmental impact?

I mean, the short answer is if all of the constraints and inputs to a problem are known, you don't need an AI at all. There is a guaranteed optimal crop arrangement, and the model to produce it would be purely based on natural sciences only - physics, biochemistry, engineering etc.

AI is only required when there is some unknown, ambiguous, adversarial, or otherwise non-existent input or constraint. AI (or indeed any intelligence) is only useful in situations where there is "bias" (in the data science sense), inference, preference, and extrapolation being used to make decisions in an unknown space.

And it's precisely in these areas where ethics can be part of the "weights" given to those inferences and preferences.

Re: Is Ethical A.I. Even Possible?

#76
post #2

Ethical AI is hard, but so are ethical laws, ethical taxation, and ethical advertising, to name a few more ubiquitous things than AI. The real answer here is that ethics is hard, and even if you know ethics and can get some agreement, getting humans to be ethical is even harder. AI only introduces a new danger, but at the current complexity of AI I don't think its any more significant in effect than the other ethical…

I think AI is especially important for it to be used ethically because it has an unrivaled capacity to be used unethically

> [AI] has an unrivaled capacity to be used unethically

Does it?

At a personal level, I'm much more scared of a bad person with a gun and access to me than a bad person with an AI and access to me. It's more important than the ethical use of a teacup, but certainly rivaled and beaten at a micro level.

At a macro level I think your argument has more ground to stand on when it comes to things like improved efficiency of mass surveillance, but how much of that is AI part rather than the mass surveillance part? What immoralities are enabled/accelerated that could not be done without AI? In the end I'm just as concerned about mass surveillance as I was before. In a practical sense, even if somehow passed laws limiting AI, do I really think that a government performing mass surveillance in the shadows is going to follow those laws when AI is a concept anyone (with the know-how) can implement? I don't think AI's power/capacity is as high as people think, it just tends to fit well with some very bad macro level ethical actions to enhance them.

I'm not sure I'm convinced either way yet, but the claim of "unrivaled" made me immediately skeptical, at least considering the AI of this decade(s). In a hundred years you're probably right with the unrivaled part, though atom bombs and the like are probably close seconds.

Re: Is Ethical A.I. Even Possible?

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you not see the contradiction in writing about how no tools are inherently unethical, then say that one tool is inherently unethical because you are scared of it in particular?

I’m not scared of any of it, I don’t think that neither guns nor AI are unethical, nor ethical I don’t anthropomorphize objects.

Sugar, pollution and cars are much more likely to kill you.

Re: Is Ethical A.I. Even Possible?

#78
post #10
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A, the old "it's how you use the tool" chestnut. Only some tools are inherently abusable -- something that has been expressed in lots of forms, from "the medium is the message" critique of TV/internet/etc, to the gun control debate ("guns don't kill people, people kill people" etc).

Could you provide some examples of tools which are not inherently abusable? I can't think of any.

You can't very much abuse a shoe to cause harm.

Or a fax machine.

Or broccoli.

Or a pencil.

(Yeah, you could stab someone in the eye with the latter, but it's not something inherently violent about a pencil more than 2000 other things you could do it with, and most people would never do anything like that despite having used one).

Other things however, are either precisely made for harm and profit (e.g. a grenade, or "Hot Pockets"), or lend themselves very well to it (e.g. dynamite, internet cookies, etc.).

Re: Is Ethical A.I. Even Possible?

#79
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A, the old "it's how you use the tool" chestnut. Only some tools are inherently abusable -- something that has been expressed in lots of forms, from "the medium is the message" critique of TV/internet/etc, to the gun control debate ("guns don't kill people, people kill people" etc).

I think you are missing the point, the argument is AI ethical isn’t the same as can AI be ethical. AI is a tool, and while you can say some tools are easier to abuse than others it has not baring on their ethics since tools have no ethics to begin with. And the leverage or force multiplication you get from a tool is directly tied to how easily it can be abused but also to how useful it is to you in general. Is a gun…

>AI is a tool, and while you can say some tools are easier to abuse than others it has not baring on their ethics since tools have no ethics to begin with.

For one, that argument only holds for tools without conscience (e.g. a hammer or a headphone). AI, though, is precisely the kind of tool that can be capable to have ethics.

Second, even dumb tools without ethics of their own, can be ethically problematic (e.g. a bomb).

Re: Is Ethical A.I. Even Possible?

#80
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Though I agree in principle, I think tools can’t be considered in isolation, but rather in the context of iterated game theory. Is Instagram inherently evil? Obviously not; but through the lens of pre-existing human social dynamics, including status competition, mating drives, social signaling, etc, the capabilities introduced by that particular tool almost inevitably lead to the perverse incentives of lifestyle faca…

AI isn’t s player it’s as dumb as a rock. The players are still humans that build, maintain, operate and can switch it off.

>AI isn’t s player it’s as dumb as a rock.

That's a religious view of AI and humans, where humans have special qualities (like soul and consciousness) perhaps evolved "magically" or "god given", that a machine can't have.

There are no serious arguments why an AI can't have perfect human-like consciousness, feelings and everything.

Inversely, there are no serious arguments why humans are special in any way, and their brain mappings can't be replicated by technical AI (eg. artificial neurons) or emulated by software.

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