Earlier quoted context omitted.
Nobody mentioned the Euro Zone before you did; they're talking about Europe "as a continent", for the most part. Living in the UK, national payments are instant , with very few exceptions. And having lived in both Switzerland (where they use CHF), and Germany (Euros), I can say it's much the same across Europe. International payments within Europe are fast too; a couple of days if you're changing currencies, and fast…
>bank's exchange rates are criminal! Transferwise is easy and are about 0.3% off interbank. Interactive Brokers are a pain to set up but some tiny amount off like 0.02%
Accepting Bitcoin as a Small Business – 4 Years In, No Customers
231–240 of 243 posts
Re: Accepting Bitcoin as a Small Business – 4 Years In, No Customers
#232Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Bitcoin appeals to human greed, that's it Much of the motivation of the founders and enthusiasts was that governments and existing financial systems are flawed so it may be valuable to have a peer to peer financial system outside of that.
Flawed how? This is a problem solving furum keep in mind.
Re: Accepting Bitcoin as a Small Business – 4 Years In, No Customers
#233Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've heard this argument a few times now and while yes this is true for Bitcoin, there is nothing stopping another project from implementing this feature. Smart contracts, for example, make this type of feature open to any developer who wishes to code it. In my view, Bitcoin is like MySQL and cryptocurrency/blockchain is SQL. Sure bitcoin has specific limitations but any other generic cryptocurrency doesn't have to i…
"Blockchain" is a database, but bitcoin is much more than its storage backend. The reason you can't simply replicate it is due to the monetary policy. In a world where anyone can make their own cryptocurrency, and we have "bluejellybeanBucks" and "sparkieSterling", how much value are these silly currencies going to have? Their value will converge towards zero as more of them are printed and less of them are actually…
Blockchain in this context is referring to a specific set of implementation details to create a database. They are similar but not the same, a blockchain is a database but a database is not a blockchain.
>The reason you can't simply replicate it is due to the monetary policy.
I’m not fully grasping what you are implying here, mind explaining further?
> In a world where anyone can make their own cryptocurrency, and we have "bluejellybeanBucks" and "sparkieSterling", how much value are these silly currencies going to have?
This world already exists and the value of each should be somewhat independent, “bluejellybeanBucks” may have a feature that creates far more value than “sparkieSterling” for example. I would postulate that the majority of the currencies created will be low value but I don’t really see this as an issue with cryptocurrency in general.
> Their value will converge towards zero as more of them are printed and less of them are actually useful for representing value.
I don’t actually see an issue with this as market forces can handle this. If I have a street with a single Starbucks (bitcoin) serving the population adequately I can still open 20 more shops. The value will converge towards zero as more stores open, thus the closure of failed stores should occur.
>The whole point of Bitcoin was to solve this inflation problem. If you don't care about inflation, you don't need a "blockchain" to begin with.
Do you have a source for this claim? Although a touted difference between fiat and bitcoin, the idea of deflation isn’t limited to bitcoin. I could create bluejellybeanBucks to include the same mechanism that bitcoin does. I could also decide to print the currency at specific times or even give control to a central authority that will print money when deemed fit.
> Bitcoin has the network effects, and it also required the creation (inflation) of some initial set of distributed digital asset because it was the first of its kind, and could not piggyback off of some other scarce, verifiable asset.
While true Bitcoin does had the network effects, this does not mean another contender will be unable to rise to the top. Any cryptocurrency that one chooses to create can implement it in a way that mirrors bitcoin or piggyback off of some asset.
> Every other "cryptocurrency" that came afterwards, could piggyback of a scarce digital asset and avoid the inflation problem. They had Bitcoin to piggyback off. Well, they didn’t have to and again, this is a choice in the development of each specific asset.
> In future, all "blockchain" projects will be implemented as sidechains to bitcoin, or as payment networks which transact in Bitcoin and therefore don't create inflation by design.
This is a little absurd to me and I don’t really see this future happening. In anycase, any predictions of the future here is mainly speculation.
> Things like the Liquid sidechain, Sidechain One (drivechains), Rootstock, Lightning network, etc. These are the "implementations" which will be competing for users, but they'll all be functioning on the same currency, because any currency other than Bitcoin is destined to lose value with time, due to the inflation they designed into their system.
Sure, the implementations you described are on bitcoin, but again, solutions of this sort can be applied generally to other cryptocurrencies. Any currency other than Bitcoin is NOT destined to lose value with time. If you are specifically talking about a currency that has inflation built in, sure I would agree, but when discussing a currency this isn’t necessarily the case.
Re: Accepting Bitcoin as a Small Business – 4 Years In, No Customers
#234Back in early 2016 I told myself that if BTC dropped below $200 I would buy one. The lowest I saw was $203. When it went meteor a few years later, I felt Fold remorse. Perhaps it is sour grapes, but every time I walk by the BTC machine at my corner store, I relish in seeing how low it has gone, though still well higher than $200. :/ More on topic, the only action the corner store BTC machine gets, apart from drug add…
What’s a BTC machine? What happened to the money the poor souls dumped into it?
Re: Accepting Bitcoin as a Small Business – 4 Years In, No Customers
#235Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Blockchain" is a database, but bitcoin is much more than its storage backend. The reason you can't simply replicate it is due to the monetary policy. In a world where anyone can make their own cryptocurrency, and we have "bluejellybeanBucks" and "sparkieSterling", how much value are these silly currencies going to have? Their value will converge towards zero as more of them are printed and less of them are actually…
>"Blockchain" is a database, but bitcoin is much more than its storage backend. Blockchain in this context is referring to a specific set of implementation details to create a database. They are similar but not the same, a blockchain is a database but a database is not a blockchain. >The reason you can't simply replicate it is due to the monetary policy. I’m not fully grasping what you are implying here, mind explain…
Bitcoin catches the interest of low time preference people who want to be able to store assets (accumulate capital) in a way that a government could not come and steal their money. Inflation is one form of theft, it's a hidden tax on savers, continually picking small amounts of their stored value. The "blockchain" is interesting technology to achieve this, but if there were an alternative which provided the same security guarantees then it too would be just as good. It's not the "blockchain" which is the interesting development, but the innovation of censorship resistant, permissionless, non-inflationary money. A blockchain is really just an application of a Merkle-Tree, something which has been around for decades and is used in many systems already.
> This world already exists and the value of each should be somewhat independent, “bluejellybeanBucks” may have a feature that creates far more value than “sparkieSterling” for example. I would postulate that the majority of the currencies created will be low value but I don’t really see this as an issue with cryptocurrency in general.
I think it's a mistake to look at a cryptocurrency as "creating value". They do nothing of the kind. Money does not create value. Lending money can create value by allowing enterprises to expand in exchange for some of the profits, but in order to lend money, it needs to be worth something to begin with.
Imagine if I went around lending "Hasbro Monopoly Money" to people and expecting them to "create value" from it. It's absurd. Cryptocurrencies in general are no different from Monopoly money. Printing your own money does not create any value at all, because anyone can do it. Cryptocurrencies have precisely the same problem, that anyone can create one. Nobody has a leading edge, because the ideas can be copied too. Cryptocurrencies are trying to forcibly grab some network effect to make them appear to be more than Monopoly money, but they only attract speculators and gamblers who want to make a few bucks. Nobody is interested in the "technology" behind Dogecoin. It's hype + marketing + memes.
As the hype dies down and reality gets a hold, these cryptocurrencies will all be competing for a share of the declining "dumb money" which comes into the crypto space. Lets say we had some objective measure of value of this value, call it V. If we have one cryptocurrency, then the value of each of its tokens will be a function of V over the total supply of its currency. When you introduce a second cryptocurrency, it doesn't increase "V". It merely increases the number of tokens which V is split among. Each token will therefore hold less of a portion of V than before. Keep adding cryptocurrencies and splitting V further, the only outcome is that they become worth effectively 0.
The mistake cryptocurrency proponents believe is that V will increase due to their "innovation," and not just because they're collecting easy (gambled) money. Far from creating value, they do nothing but extract value from laymen and enrich their creators. There is nothing in economic history which suggests that new value will be created merely by the creation of a new money. Even Bitcoin didn't "create" value in itself, it relied on people exchanging it for other value initially. Bitcoin has created value in industries surrounding it, but this doesn't increase the value of bitcoin itself unless people are willing to exchange some other value for it.
> I don’t actually see an issue with this as market forces can handle this. If I have a street with a single Starbucks (bitcoin) serving the population adequately I can still open 20 more shops. The value will converge towards zero as more stores open, thus the closure of failed stores should occur.
I'm not contesting that the market will deal with it. I'm just telling you the market's outcome in advance, because it is inevitable. Either Bitcoin will come out as the winner, or all decentralized cryptocurrencies will become worthless and we'll end up with digital fiat.
> Do you have a source for this claim? Although a touted difference between fiat and bitcoin, the idea of deflation isn’t limited to bitcoin. I could create bluejellybeanBucks to include the same mechanism that bitcoin does.
It was hinted in the Bitcoin whitepaper (the removal of inflation altogether), and other texts written by Satoshi Nakamoto. However, it was implied to the cypherpunks who were already interested in digital money, because it was a fundamentally unsolved problem. Various digital monies had come and gone before it, but it wasn't until Bitcoin that both the removal of trusted entities and the removal of inflation had been achieved together. This is what made Bitcoin successful, and it's a success that cannot possibly be repeated, because it already happened. You can't invent the wheel a second time, it was already done.
Because their value is measured in terms of Bitcoin (due to bitcoin being the ramp by which alts are obtained), new cryptocurrencies which print their own money (ie, Litecoin) are simply adding inflation to the (overall) digital currency system. There are 21M bitcoins and 84M litecoins. If one Litecoin is worth (via speculation) 0.013BTC, then 84M of them is ~1M BTC of value. In effect, there are now "22M worth of BTC" in tokens, because people who don't understand economics think that LTC has some tangible advantage that Bitcoin doesn't provide.
As above, there is still a finite amount of value being put into cryptocurrency, V. The value of a bitcoin is now V/22M. If we now create XCoin, YCoin and ZCoin, each printing many millions, then you're just increasing the denominator but you're not actually increasing the numerator, V. People are going to stop putting money into bitcoin (or cryptocurrency in general) because it will become a terrible store of value, worse than fiat, because no cryptocurrency can hold value whilst there is no cap on inflation. This means V will acttually decrease rather than increase, and the value of each coin will decrease in response.
The failure of people to understand economics and look at Bitcoin as merely a technical system means that no decentralized currency is going to have any value at all, unless only one of them does (to fix the inflation problem). People would have more faith in centralized shitcoins pushed out by Facebook et al than they'd have with an ecosystem of coins which cannot hold value.
> While true Bitcoin does had the network effects, this does not mean another contender will be unable to rise to the top. Any cryptocurrency that one chooses to create can implement it in a way that mirrors bitcoin or piggyback off of some asset.
If anyone can create a cryptocurrency, then there is nothing that can set one cryptocurrency ahead of the others. If there is some interesting technology, that same technology can be reused by somebody else as a bitcoin sidechain, and then you'd have the same technology, plus the "inflation fix" of Bitoin. It would be superior to the coin which printed its own token. This is why it is extremely unlikely that any "flippening" will occur. Bitcoin has the network effects and the developers who are most focused on the principles behind it (financial autonomy etc). The thousands of others have a few developers who are trying to strike it rich by selling to people like yourself, or themselves, because most of the developers themselves have no grasp of economics.
That isn't to say that there isn't some use in other currencies. Monero is an example of one which has a real tangible use-case, for anonymous payments which Bitcoin doesn't provide yet. It's very likely that Bitcoin will get this functionality at some point, and since Monero is inflationary by design, it will probably not retain value. It's use case will eventually be assimilated by something pegged to Bitcoin. The same is true for other coins, although I'm not aware of any other currency besides Bitcoin or Monero which does offer a real tangible use case.
> Sure, the implementations you described are on bitcoin, but again, solutions of this sort can be applied generally to other cryptocurrencies.
Put this into reverse perspective. If any solutions can be applied generally, then they can be applied to Bitcoin too, and take advantage of Bitcoin's larger network effect. Who is going to win then? The die has already been cast and Bitcoin is leading the charge by a very large margin. Loss of faith in Bitcoin would imply a loss of faith in cryptocurrency as a concept, meaning that if people decide to drop Bitcoin, it's unlikely they'll be replacing it with some snakeoil competitor of it.
Re: Accepting Bitcoin as a Small Business – 4 Years In, No Customers
#236Earlier quoted context omitted.
What’s a BTC machine? What happened to the money the poor souls dumped into it?
Your guess is as good as mine. It looks like a MTO kiosk. It feels like an ATM. According to [redacted] their money went straight ether.
Re: Accepting Bitcoin as a Small Business – 4 Years In, No Customers
#237Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sounds a lot like if 'early access' was a thing, and duke nukem forever released a half baked first level that was difficult to use, and didn't really amount to anything beyond being able to point to a 'release'
Except that this is a protocol, not a product. And there are multiple teams building implementations. HTTP 1.0 didn't have some pretty fundamental features like keep-alive. But regardless of whether or not LN even ever works well, there will be something that does. Maybe not bitcoin, but a lot of smart people are trying a lot of different things. Just cause pong sucked doesn't mean there can't be great games.
> Just cause pong sucked
Pong was and still is great.
Re: Accepting Bitcoin as a Small Business – 4 Years In, No Customers
#238Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I would imagine for large businesses this probably isn't to big of a concern. I also wonder if they could get away with making significant amounts of money by picking the price highs & lows of the day of receipt and day of conversion to USD when reporting taxes. Nope. The daily spot price is determined and that's the value you need to use in your accounting with currency conversion for tax purposes. It's set by tak…
Good to know. I was under the assumption you were to use the price at the time of the transaction. The daily spot price seems like a huge risk for businesses.
You factor it into your pricing models. Take the daily spot price from the day before, go +/- 3 cents in your favour, and you're probably fine. Unless you're dealing with a hugely volatile currency, you're unlikely to see more than a 1 or 2 cent variation on a day by day basis.
Re: Accepting Bitcoin as a Small Business – 4 Years In, No Customers
#239Earlier quoted context omitted.
Bitcoin is terrible for storing value.
It's been a great store of value over the past 6 years. It has outperformed every major index and currency. If you had invested just $10K in Bitcoin in May 2013, by July 2013 you would have lost almost half of your money... But if you were smart and had held on to it, today you would have over $350K! As Warren Buffet would say, you just have to buy when everyone else is selling and sell when everyone else is buying.…
$0
Re: Accepting Bitcoin as a Small Business – 4 Years In, No Customers
#240Back in early 2016 I told myself that if BTC dropped below $200 I would buy one. The lowest I saw was $203. When it went meteor a few years later, I felt Fold remorse. Perhaps it is sour grapes, but every time I walk by the BTC machine at my corner store, I relish in seeing how low it has gone, though still well higher than $200. :/ More on topic, the only action the corner store BTC machine gets, apart from drug add…
What’s a BTC machine? What happened to the money the poor souls dumped into it?
I imagine that this was one of the models that was linked to an exchange account, since the QR-based versions make it fairly obvious where the funds are going and won't work unless you first set up a receiving account and present the QR code for the machine to scan.