Protest against the EU radio lockdown • Hacker News Board

Re: Protest against the EU radio lockdown

#41

Post by sjwpv » Sun, Mar 03, 2019, 3:35 PM UTC

andybak wrote: post #4

sarcasmOrTears wrote: post #2

It would be much easier to protest for the creation of a law that punishes the attempt to create or the creation of bad laws. After all when you propose a bad law, you can just propose it again and again and again until it gets implemented, then good luck getting rid of it. As for "how do you define bad laws?". We know it's possible because we have constitutions. We know they can be expanded. We know it's possible to…

Reminds me of the ongoing fight over crypto-legislation. "They only have to win once, you have to be vigilant and win every single time" I also suspect that the current patent mess is a result of failing to win the continual defensive battle. I'd be interested to hear from any law or political theorists regarding this seemingly deep flaw in the system. What could be done to mitigate it? How do we stop the same bad la…

>They only have to win once, you have to be vigilant and win every single time

The law is not a blockchain ledger. If bad law gets in, it can also get removed later.

Re: Protest against the EU radio lockdown

#42

Post by sjwpv » Sun, Mar 03, 2019, 3:39 PM UTC

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #31

sjwpv wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you read it? It would mean, for example, the end of OpenWrt. What about the rest of recent terrible regulations and laws?

Then give feedback. The process is open for that reason. If you remove the EU from this you will have the insividual regulators ask for the same. Austria and Switzerland for instance push for this. //edit: also even the proposed regulation would not prevent custom firmwares. You just meed to lock down the radio.

>Austria and Switzerland for instance push for this.

This is the kind of law that's only pushed by wealthy countries like Germany or the UK. I live in a shithole which would never get a law like this. Getting rubbish like this, net neutrality, copyright reforms, etc. would never happen here on its own because we have much bigger fish to fry.

Re: Protest against the EU radio lockdown

#43

Post by x38iq84n » Sun, Mar 03, 2019, 4:02 PM UTC

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #31

sjwpv wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you read it? It would mean, for example, the end of OpenWrt. What about the rest of recent terrible regulations and laws?

Then give feedback. The process is open for that reason. If you remove the EU from this you will have the insividual regulators ask for the same. Austria and Switzerland for instance push for this. //edit: also even the proposed regulation would not prevent custom firmwares. You just meed to lock down the radio.

This. Article 13. Article 11. TTIP. CETA.

Stupid ideas coming out of EU are more and more frequent.

I don't want to give feedback. I want accountable and professional political representation that will not dare to come up with such ideas in the first place.

Re: Protest against the EU radio lockdown

#44

Post by faissaloo » Sun, Mar 03, 2019, 4:04 PM UTC

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #30

faissaloo wrote: post #17

Yet another reason why I'm glad for Brexit.

That makes no sense. First of all the driver is ETSI which the UK is a big part of, secondly even a non EU country (Switzerland) is behind this. Even after Brexit the UK will likely adopt this.

Sure, but it'll also make it easier to revert.

Re: Protest against the EU radio lockdown

#45

Post by watwut » Sun, Mar 03, 2019, 4:28 PM UTC

x38iq84n wrote: post #43

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then give feedback. The process is open for that reason. If you remove the EU from this you will have the insividual regulators ask for the same. Austria and Switzerland for instance push for this. //edit: also even the proposed regulation would not prevent custom firmwares. You just meed to lock down the radio.

This. Article 13. Article 11. TTIP. CETA. Stupid ideas coming out of EU are more and more frequent. I don't want to give feedback. I want accountable and professional political representation that will not dare to come up with such ideas in the first place.

The only way to achieve that is to regularly give feedback in areas you understand well. The representation that will not dare to come up with such ideas in the first place wont happen out of nothing.

Re: Protest against the EU radio lockdown

#46

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Mar 03, 2019, 4:29 PM UTC

ivanbakel wrote: post #3

What would be the motivator for this kind of clause? I can't imagine radio-device manufacturers would appreciate the additional expense, and at least some of them must benefit from consumers buying those products specifically for customization. Are the national governments pushing for more radio control? Is there some kind of crisis of radio abuse? Or is it an indirect way to give governments more punishment tools, b…

[deleted]

Re: Protest against the EU radio lockdown

#47

Post by Freak_NL » Sun, Mar 03, 2019, 4:37 PM UTC

x38iq84n wrote: post #43

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then give feedback. The process is open for that reason. If you remove the EU from this you will have the insividual regulators ask for the same. Austria and Switzerland for instance push for this. //edit: also even the proposed regulation would not prevent custom firmwares. You just meed to lock down the radio.

This. Article 13. Article 11. TTIP. CETA. Stupid ideas coming out of EU are more and more frequent. I don't want to give feedback. I want accountable and professional political representation that will not dare to come up with such ideas in the first place.

Politicians will always come up with dangerously worded good intentions every once in a while, regardless of which parliament it is — national or European. At least at the European level the number of folk that pick up on the risks of such articles is significantly higher than at the national level — especially for smaller countries.

Asking for feedback on complex legislature proposals is surely preferable to exclusively taking notes from meetings with lobby groups behind closed doors. Besides, national governments often ask for feedback on proposed laws too!

Re: Protest against the EU radio lockdown

#48

Post by simion314 » Sun, Mar 03, 2019, 4:39 PM UTC

the8472 wrote: post #19

simion314 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But how can groups debate if a law is good or bad, isn't proposing such a law the way the debate is started? Maybe some bad laws have good intentions but some poor wording can have bad consequences. Also why do we think constitutions are perfect, don't countries have to update them periodically to fix them?

Then let courts take stated intent of lawmakers into account and throw out cases where the application of the law is different from the stated intent.

I am not an expert, but I see a problem with this idea too, the lawmaker will need to also write what the intention is, then you can find loopholes in the text of what the intention is. or the intention could be very general so ambiguous to interpret. In some countries there is a way for the people to contest laws as unconstitutional and have judges not politicians decide.

Re: Protest against the EU radio lockdown

#49

Post by technofiend » Sun, Mar 03, 2019, 4:42 PM UTC

sjwpv wrote: post #41

andybak wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of the ongoing fight over crypto-legislation. "They only have to win once, you have to be vigilant and win every single time" I also suspect that the current patent mess is a result of failing to win the continual defensive battle. I'd be interested to hear from any law or political theorists regarding this seemingly deep flaw in the system. What could be done to mitigate it? How do we stop the same bad la…

>They only have to win once, you have to be vigilant and win every single time The law is not a blockchain ledger. If bad law gets in, it can also get removed later.

It can be but it's an uphill battle the entire way and opponents try to shame crypto supporters with the Four Horsemen of the Crypto Apocalypse: Terrorists, Child Pornographers, Tax Evaders and Those Who Have Something To Hide.

Any objection to government surveillance is met with "Well you must be a member of or support the activities of" one or more members of the aforementioned groups. It's better to never let a bad law in than remove it later because people are irrational and bring these emotional arguments into play.

Re: Protest against the EU radio lockdown

#50

Post by the_mitsuhiko » Sun, Mar 03, 2019, 5:04 PM UTC

sjwpv wrote: post #42

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then give feedback. The process is open for that reason. If you remove the EU from this you will have the insividual regulators ask for the same. Austria and Switzerland for instance push for this. //edit: also even the proposed regulation would not prevent custom firmwares. You just meed to lock down the radio.

>Austria and Switzerland for instance push for this. This is the kind of law that's only pushed by wealthy countries like Germany or the UK. I live in a shithole which would never get a law like this. Getting rubbish like this, net neutrality, copyright reforms, etc. would never happen here on its own because we have much bigger fish to fry.

You say that but many EU countries had crazy laws on radio and telecommunications in the past.