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Protest against the EU radio lockdown

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Re: Protest against the EU radio lockdown

#31

Post by the_mitsuhiko »

sjwpv wrote: post #22
sorokod wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are they cool with you installing whatever you want on whatever you own - or are you in "cutting off the nose to spite the face" mode?

Have you read it? It would mean, for example, the end of OpenWrt. What about the rest of recent terrible regulations and laws?

Then give feedback. The process is open for that reason. If you remove the EU from this you will have the insividual regulators ask for the same. Austria and Switzerland for instance push for this.

//edit: also even the proposed regulation would not prevent custom firmwares. You just meed to lock down the radio.

Re: Protest against the EU radio lockdown

#32

Post by patrickaljord »

dTal wrote: post #28
throw082 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

maybe because they can be used for many nefarious purposes?

So can wheels. You shouldn't ban general purpose technology because of particular bad uses.

I agree with you, but for anyone following EU rules and regulations, this ship has sailed a long time ago. Drugs, guns, radio are just part of a huge long list of "general purpose technology" that have been regulated out of existence.

Re: Protest against the EU radio lockdown

#33

Post by remcob »

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #29
remcob wrote: post #21

We have existing regulations stating what is allowed on which frequencies. Is there evidence that the devices prohibited by the proposal lead to widescale breaking of these regulations? And if so, is there evidence that this causes harm? It's harsh to assume that people can not be trusted with SDRs and therefore we should ban them outright. I'd like these sorts of blanket bans to come with a strong evidence backed re…

> Is there evidence that these devices lead to widescale breaking of these regulations? And if so, is there evidence that this causes harm? Yes there is. A lot of people now import devices from countries with different frequencies causing a mess. This is especially a problem if frequencies are used for other purposes.

> A lot of people now import devices from countries with different frequencies causing a mess.

If they are already using devices that are not compliant with EU regulations, then I don't see how stricter regulations would solve this. This sounds like an enforcement issue. What prevents people from importing the very same non-compliant devices under the proposed regulations?

In fact, I can see more of this import happening as the domestic devices will now be more expensive and crippled.

Re: Protest against the EU radio lockdown

#34

Post by the_mitsuhiko »

dTal wrote: post #28
throw082 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

maybe because they can be used for many nefarious purposes?

So can wheels. You shouldn't ban general purpose technology because of particular bad uses.

A lot of general purpose technologies are restricted to safe use.

Re: Protest against the EU radio lockdown

#35

Post by the_mitsuhiko »

remcob wrote: post #33
the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is there evidence that these devices lead to widescale breaking of these regulations? And if so, is there evidence that this causes harm? Yes there is. A lot of people now import devices from countries with different frequencies causing a mess. This is especially a problem if frequencies are used for other purposes.

> A lot of people now import devices from countries with different frequencies causing a mess. If they are already using devices that are not compliant with EU regulations, then I don't see how stricter regulations would solve this. This sounds like an enforcement issue. What prevents people from importing the very same non-compliant devices under the proposed regulations? In fact, I can see more of this import happe…

You could destroy such devices at customs inspection. Currently such devices are legal. The use outside of the legal frequencies is not and enforcement is almost impossible.

Re: Protest against the EU radio lockdown

#36

Post by ben_w »

dTal wrote: post #28
throw082 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

maybe because they can be used for many nefarious purposes?

So can wheels. You shouldn't ban general purpose technology because of particular bad uses.

“Regulate” != “Ban”

And in this case, the proposed regulation is:

“””[R]adio equipment [shall support] certain features in order to ensure that software can only be loaded into the radio equipment where the compliance of the combination of the radio equipment and software has been demonstrated.”””

Now I don’t think that’s a well written rule, but my problem is the specifics rather than the general idea. I think that either all broadcasts should be digitally signed, or it should not be possible for hackers to remotely modify many other people’s radios to broadcast false signals. (One-on-one modifications I don’t care about so much, but how do you write/pass such rules, given the difficulty getting people to care about or believe the scale difference between automated and manual hacking?)

Re: Protest against the EU radio lockdown

#37

Post by acd »

This is bad for many reasons * Security, device manufacturers stop supporting updates after a certain while * The environment, lots of devices will become obsolete with no software updates. Free software provides such updates. This will contribute bad towards global warming. * Being able to experiment with hardware you own and run open source.

Re: Protest against the EU radio lockdown

#38

Post by raverbashing »

I remember that the FCC has a similar requirement, and that was one of the issues behind "no open source drivers for wifi modules"

This shouldn't affect OpenWRT if it uses a standard driver, unless I'm mistaken (or "radio equipment" means the whole thing and not just the radio module - but that's up to debate)

Re: Protest against the EU radio lockdown

#39

Post by patrickaljord »

dpwm wrote: post #25
faissaloo wrote: post #17

Yet another reason why I'm glad for Brexit.

There's still time to oppose this. > Yet another reason why I'm glad for Brexit. If you think that Brexit will stop this, I hope you are right – but I very much fear you are massively underestimating the UK government's appetite for bad laws and bad process.

I think the argument is that with Brexit it's easier to change laws because you only have to deal with/convince one government instead of 30+ ones.

Re: Protest against the EU radio lockdown

#40

Post by xondono »

ben_w wrote: post #36
dTal wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So can wheels. You shouldn't ban general purpose technology because of particular bad uses.

“Regulate” != “Ban” And in this case, the proposed regulation is: “””[R]adio equipment [shall support] certain features in order to ensure that software can only be loaded into the radio equipment where the compliance of the combination of the radio equipment and software has been demonstrated.””” Now I don’t think that’s a well written rule, but my problem is the specifics rather than the general idea. I think that…

The problem is that we already have regulations to avoid broadcasting on restricted/licensed bands.

In general, current regulation makes the owner of the equipment responsible for the broadcast.

This new regulation will just stifle development on SDR technologies

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