France Plans 5% Digital Tax as Governments Chase Internet Giants • Hacker News Board

Re: France Plans 5% Digital Tax as Governments Chase Internet Giants

#41

Post by kyrra » Sun, Mar 03, 2019, 2:01 PM UTC

platz wrote: post #21

yoz-y wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because for an international company there is really no clear cut way to say what is tax evasion and what is not. If your company is incorporated in France, has offices in Ireland and serves customers all over the world, how do you calculate where to pay what? Sovereign countries are free to set their tax rate to 0 in order to attract companies there.

I'm pretty sure Google does not have a problem figuring out that the source of it's profits are not occuring in Ireland.

It's not that simple?

How do you tax a German company paying an Irish company to show ads in France?

Re: France Plans 5% Digital Tax as Governments Chase Internet Giants

#42

Post by platz » Sun, Mar 03, 2019, 2:03 PM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #37

platz wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure Google does not have a problem figuring out that the source of it's profits are not occuring in Ireland.

There is no science to what the 'correct' level of tax is, and assigning which part of a multinational corporation is responsible for what dollar of profit is genuinely complicated. As long as they are playing by the rules, no company has an obligation to try and guess what level of tax is fair for them to pay. Since they are taxed according to their interpretation of the situation (as represented in their account bo…

Oh, I am not implying the "rules" are correct by any means either. Yes, I am saying that just because the rules/laws permit a thing, doesn't mean it isn't broken. The whole point of courts is to decide what broken laws mean, governments to fix holes in the laws, and people to decide who the government is.

Re: France Plans 5% Digital Tax as Governments Chase Internet Giants

#43

Post by chongli » Sun, Mar 03, 2019, 2:06 PM UTC

kartan wrote: post #34

awestroke wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So exporting should be illegal?

Doing business with tax havens should be illegal. A tax Haven creates an agreement between companies and a country to steal another country tax reveneu. Tax havens produce close to nothing, so they have very small exports. It's just a legal arrangement that has nothing to do with production.

Tax havens are often highly desirable tourist destinations. Making it illegal to do business with them would anger a lot of tourists and is, frankly, a violation of freedom of movement.

Re: France Plans 5% Digital Tax as Governments Chase Internet Giants

#44

Post by readhn » Sun, Mar 03, 2019, 2:08 PM UTC

Why wont government taxation agencies have tax bounty programs?

If you, as a tax professional, find a taxation loophole that allows big businesses to lower their taxes - you get a $$$ compensation and the loophole gets publicized and "officially" patched.

Re: France Plans 5% Digital Tax as Governments Chase Internet Giants

#45

Post by platz » Sun, Mar 03, 2019, 2:09 PM UTC

kyrra wrote: post #41

platz wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure Google does not have a problem figuring out that the source of it's profits are not occuring in Ireland.

It's not that simple? How do you tax a German company paying an Irish company to show ads in France?

much like the trolley problem and driverless cars, you can easily get lost in the weeds in a legitimate, complex theoretical question, when for a concrete problem a simple answer can easily be obtained. In fact, the theoretical question obscures or acts as cover for the concrete case. For driverless cars, you just apply the brakes. For google, do you outlaw "The double Irish with a Dutch sandwich"

Re: France Plans 5% Digital Tax as Governments Chase Internet Giants

#46

Post by titanix2 » Sun, Mar 03, 2019, 2:10 PM UTC

Very good but where the 5% come from? I’m reading another article in French about it and they’re speaking of 3%.

Re: France Plans 5% Digital Tax as Governments Chase Internet Giants

#47

Post by beagle3 » Sun, Mar 03, 2019, 2:11 PM UTC

puzzle wrote: post #33

This is not very helpful or informative. In the case of Google, who are they going to tax? Google Ireland? Google France? How exactly?

Money collected for services rendered through a French IP. That is, on ads shown to French viewers, on GSuite accounts paid while connected to a French IP address, etc.

Re: France Plans 5% Digital Tax as Governments Chase Internet Giants

#48

Post by xondono » Sun, Mar 03, 2019, 2:11 PM UTC

kartan wrote: post #34

awestroke wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So exporting should be illegal?

Doing business with tax havens should be illegal. A tax Haven creates an agreement between companies and a country to steal another country tax reveneu. Tax havens produce close to nothing, so they have very small exports. It's just a legal arrangement that has nothing to do with production.

You are assuming that somehow that tax revenue is theirs in the first place.

What if that tax rate makes a business non-profitable in France but a money-making machine in Ireland?

Also, too much focus is centered around taxes when spurious regulations are generally more damning for a lot of companies. For example some friends of mine have attempted to start escape rooms, they have all abandoned their pursuits because here in Spain the legal framework is unclear. All escape rooms in this country are in a legal greyish area.

Re: France Plans 5% Digital Tax as Governments Chase Internet Giants

#49

Post by josefx » Sun, Mar 03, 2019, 2:12 PM UTC

ui-explorer12 wrote: post #18

yann63 wrote: post #2

Couldn't we just ban tax evasion? What makes it so hard? (honest question) A recent European study has shown that the more company win money, the less they pay in taxes (in percentage). Is it because of bad laws? Corrupt politicians? Something else?

tax evasion is illegal; tax minimization is lowering your tax burden using existing laws and is not illegal. Governments should reduce the number of unintentional loopholes but (a) it's far easier to pass new laws than amend old ones, (b) if you change a law that an existing big domestic firm or voting block is exploiting they will let you know at the polls; with a new law you can sell it as "balanced fiscal justice…

> without any honest attempt at simplification, broad application or coordination with other jurisdictions.

The problem with that is that the other jurisdictions have no interest in closing tax loopholes. The irish bend over backwards to let Apples unique sheme qualify as double irish (their tax office had to issue several private rulings) and they had no interest in getting rid of the double irish itself either. For a tax haven making even a cent in taxes they wouldn't have otherwise gotten while costing a different country a million is a win.

Re: France Plans 5% Digital Tax as Governments Chase Internet Giants

#50

Post by sokoloff » Sun, Mar 03, 2019, 2:12 PM UTC

platz wrote: post #45

kyrra wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that simple? How do you tax a German company paying an Irish company to show ads in France?

much like the trolley problem and driverless cars, you can easily get lost in the weeds in a legitimate, complex theoretical question, when for a concrete problem a simple answer can easily be obtained. In fact, the theoretical question obscures or acts as cover for the concrete case. For driverless cars, you just apply the brakes. For google, do you outlaw "The double Irish with a Dutch sandwich"

It's not that a simple answer can't be obtained, it's that many different simple answers can be obtained...