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Intellectual Denial of Service Attacks

techiavellian.com

41–50 of 107 posts

Re: Intellectual Denial of Service Attacks

#41
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should people respect formal education? Even in many "scientific" fields, standards are so low that most published research is wrong. The non-scientific parts of academia are dominated by in-group politics and shallow status seeking. And in much of academia, evidence is less important than ideology: research and researchers are banned not because they are wrong, but because their ideas are unacceptable. If academ…

Edit: Oops this was meant for your parent post not for you! Even if your claims are true m, which is definitly debatable, I’d argue that the lies of a populist and the peer review crisis in particular fields are part of the same problem (lies pay off). These problems are not inherently problems you would get rid of if we stopped giving people a formal education. On the other hand a lot of problem humanity has at the…

This might be my raw unfiltered bitterness talking, but as someone who's a few weeks off from getting their associates I'm 100% in for the peacocks tail theory of education.

>This doesn’t mean that everybody without a formal education can’t understand complex ideas or everybody with a formal education honours them. But raising the level in a communication is always good.

https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/06/06/against-tulip-subsidie...

"And to paraphrase Dirkson, $200,000 here, $200,000 there, and pretty soon it adds up to real money. 20,000 doctors graduate in the United States each year; that means the total yearly cost of requiring doctors to have undergraduate degrees is $4 billion. That’s most of the amount of money you’d need to house every homeless person in the country ($10,000 to house one homeless x 600,000 homeless).

...

This is why, despite my reservations about libertarianism, it’s not-libertarianism that really scares me. Whenever some people without skin in the game are allowed to make decisions for other people, you end up with a bunch of elderly doctors getting together, think “Yeah, things do seem a little classier around here if we make people who are not us pay $200,000, make it so,” and then there goes the money that should have housed all the homeless people in the country."

Look, the problem here is that people feel (and probably are) economically disenfranchised, so they're angry. Then on top of that the level of trust in our institutions is so low that people would rather trust some shady crank website on vaccines than the CDC. When you combine the two with a bizarre tendency to just believe whatever nonsense is put in front of them, and zero-marginal-cost global telecommunications; people believe and do stupid things. 'More formal education' doesn't solve this, I'm not sure anything solves this. In Clarke County it took an actual measles outbreak to convince people to vaccinate their kids, suggesting the only remedy we have right now for widespread stupidity is the gods of the copybook headings.

http://deadstate.org/vaccinations-increase-500-in-anti-vaxxe...

EDIT: Having had a few minutes to think it over some more, I think part of what might have happened here is that trust in 'large institutions' as a category has fallen faster than peoples trust in their fellow man. There's a tragic optimism to the situation then: people are skeptical of even the most basic ideas coming from governments, non profits, corporations, etc, but will throw common sense out the window over a well written appeal from an ordinary person. I'm not sure how you'd test this hypothesis, but I'd really like to see the results if someone did.

Re: Intellectual Denial of Service Attacks

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should people respect formal education? Even in many "scientific" fields, standards are so low that most published research is wrong. The non-scientific parts of academia are dominated by in-group politics and shallow status seeking. And in much of academia, evidence is less important than ideology: research and researchers are banned not because they are wrong, but because their ideas are unacceptable. If academ…

You're making a lot of wild claims. >Even in many "scientific" fields, standards are so low that most published research is wrong. Citation needed. >And in much of academia, evidence is less important than ideology Citation needed. >research and researchers are banned not because they are wrong, but because their ideas are unacceptable. Citation needed. Maybe it has happened to a couple of people at a few screwed up…

You can do your own research about that by yourself if you have a real interest in the topic. Anyway, here is a book about this issue in sociology (written by two researchers of the field): Gérald Bronner et Étienne Géhin (2017), Le Danger sociologique, Paris, Puf, 252 p.

Re: Intellectual Denial of Service Attacks

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should people respect formal education? Even in many "scientific" fields, standards are so low that most published research is wrong. The non-scientific parts of academia are dominated by in-group politics and shallow status seeking. And in much of academia, evidence is less important than ideology: research and researchers are banned not because they are wrong, but because their ideas are unacceptable. If academ…

Sure, our academic institutions have issues. We can argue about the exact severity, but that isn't terribly interesting. We can make efforts to improve this. We can try to learn more about where we go wrong. I don't think it's useful or wise to just throw our hands in the air and claim we should no longer give these institutions any respect or credence. Humanity has made real, amazing gains in knowledge, understandin…

It would also be unwise to blindly trust these institutions, or to grant them respect or credence as a whole without considering the problems and biases of specific fields.

And it should be remembered that the amazing gains in knowledge humanity has made have often been opposed by academia, as Max Planck observed: science advances one funeral at at time.

Re: Intellectual Denial of Service Attacks

#45
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The mainstream media misled me about Iraq, therefore I'm going to get my information from Facebook articles posted by Russian intelligence! There's the middle ground of simply not believing anything coming from either the mass media or the independent media.

I assume you mean acknowledging the different credibility of different sources, instead of just not believing anything at all. It's just as with the academia thing. I don't think the solution is to dismiss formal research and consider it unscientific, but to acknowledge it's weaknesses, specially in specific fields.

To tell you the truth I don't have time, energy or knowledge to find the sources of all news and research I see and investigate and assess the credibility of them, so I simply don't believe anything.

This problem has existed since forever, and back in the day I believed something like reddit would work because real humans would do the curation for me and call out bad news/research/etc, but we all know how that turned out.

Re: Intellectual Denial of Service Attacks

#46
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edit: Oops this was meant for your parent post not for you! Even if your claims are true m, which is definitly debatable, I’d argue that the lies of a populist and the peer review crisis in particular fields are part of the same problem (lies pay off). These problems are not inherently problems you would get rid of if we stopped giving people a formal education. On the other hand a lot of problem humanity has at the…

This might be my raw unfiltered bitterness talking, but as someone who's a few weeks off from getting their associates I'm 100% in for the peacocks tail theory of education. >This doesn’t mean that everybody without a formal education can’t understand complex ideas or everybody with a formal education honours them. But raising the level in a communication is always good. https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/06/06/against-…

And yet, of the two countries mentioned (US vs Ireland), the US is the more "libertarian"? Ireland is an only-recently-dismantled theocracy whose two biggest political parties are both centre-right and distinguish each other by what side they were on in the civil war.

Re: Intellectual Denial of Service Attacks

#47
post #39
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative is often worse. "The mainstream media misled me about Iraq, therefore I'm going to get my information from Facebook articles posted by Russian intelligence!" "There was once a batch of contaminated vaccines, so now I'm going to risk the lives of my and other children by not vaccinating them" "The banks were unfairly bailed out, so I'm going to keep my money in Quadriga"

>The mainstream media misled me about Iraq, therefore I'm going to get my information from Facebook articles posted by Russian intelligence! There's the middle ground of simply not believing anything coming from either the mass media or the independent media.

That does require recusing yourself from politics, though. Not unreasonable but if everyone does it the field is abandoned to cranks and exploiters.

Re: Intellectual Denial of Service Attacks

#48
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume you mean acknowledging the different credibility of different sources, instead of just not believing anything at all. It's just as with the academia thing. I don't think the solution is to dismiss formal research and consider it unscientific, but to acknowledge it's weaknesses, specially in specific fields.

To tell you the truth I don't have time, energy or knowledge to find the sources of all news and research I see and investigate and assess the credibility of them, so I simply don't believe anything. This problem has existed since forever, and back in the day I believed something like reddit would work because real humans would do the curation for me and call out bad news/research/etc, but we all know how that turned…

>To tell you the truth I don't have time, energy or knowledge to find the sources of all news and research I see and investigate and assess the credibility of them, so I simply don't believe anything.

So you don't even believe Donald Trump is the President of the United States, because you refuse to believe the media when it covered the campaign and election?

I'm going to guess you either don't actually hold this point of view, otherwise you could barely function in society.

Re: Intellectual Denial of Service Attacks

#49
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A variant of this technique is now standard in competitive debating Not outside the US it isn’t. Policy debating is a special US abomination, with unfortunate extensions into the cultural colony to the north. Everywhere else does parliamentary debating.

It's more than just what the arguments are about. Anywhere else in the world someone making points so quickly as in the videos would sound desperate and instantly "lose" the debate. Nobody is expect to refute point by point a nonsensical diatribe.

Recently I saw on the local Australian politics debate show someone asking a question rattled off about 5 questions with opinions shared in between each one and the responder said something like "That was a political statement, could you please rephrase that as an actual question?"

Re: Intellectual Denial of Service Attacks

#50
post #17

I think the worst kind of intellectual DOS attacks are those with high compression rate. Those that sound vaguely plausible at first ("Just do away with ALL the taxes, people will sort it out and enterprise will skyrocket") but require many more words to refute . When the politician in question is also a fast talker, and has a master's degree in Philosophy, he can appear to be smarter because no one can keep up with…

The best mental DOS attacks all center around the exact same thing: fear. Press the fear button and even generally well educated and intelligent people will start to act like complete morons.
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