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A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

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Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think take home assignments could be done well, but I've never seen it happen. You often need to spend time setting up which is a total waste of time for a throwaway project. You should provide the candidates with a starter project in their language of choice, already set up and ready for them to start working. And you should give everyone at least some time limit (maybe one or two hours at most) so everyone is on…

Why is a starter project so important that it needs to be provided by the company and why in the language of choice of the candidate? How long does it take for you to setup a starter project? When I solved the challenge that we give our applicants it took me about 5 seconds to setup the project with everything I needed to solve the challenge. In any language I use it does not take long at all to setup a new project.…

It depends on the language/framework you're using, something Rails would be very easy to get up and running, but something like a modern Javascript app SSR or Webpack, Babel, etc. might be very time consuming.

My point is your project should be a test of someone's actual development/programming ability, not project setup. You don't want to have people spend an hour configuring CMake or webpack.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#182

I'd love examples of respectful, positive ways to decline a whiteboard question.

I recently read 'Developer Hegemony' and remember a section where the author advised politely declining and suggesting that you may know some other (implied lesser) programmers who might be willing to jump through the arbitrary hoops.

Fun in theory. In my opinion this approach will work about as well as the old "if we all stop paying our taxes they can't come after all of us" idea.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#183

I ask most candidates to write code on a whiteboard in front of me and I’m not apologizing for it! The problem is usually fairly easy and if the candidate cannot get to a “describe solution in words” milestone then I will guide them to one. After that I ask them to write code. I will also tell them “the code is the part I care about”. The specific competency I am evaluating here is “can you turn thoughts into code”.…

Thank you for writing this post. Whiteboard code interviews get a lot of hate on HN and I suspect that folks who have come to rely on them for part of their hiring signal have simply stopped posting. I've done a lot of lower level systems work and the fact is that even with a long career and history of very successful product I get whiteboard coding interviews when I look for a job ... and it's just fine. Yes it's no…

As a hiring manager, I agree wholeheartedly with the root comment.

I love whiteboard interviews. Really. I do.

The problem is -- most start-ups are terrible at them. And most people interviewing at FAANG don't understand the reason those companies ask these types of questions.

Top tech companies ask hard interview questions for a few reasons.

They're not necessarily trying to hire the best people. They're trying to ensure the people that they do hire aren't incompetent. Hardly anyone incompetent is going to pass Google's interview process. Period.

Why are they so focused on not hiring incompetent people? It's not easy to fire people for being incompetent (or even worse -- toxic).

So if they're just trying to not hire incompetent people, why are the algorithms questions MUCH harder than the problems you face on an average day?

Two reasons. One, they have so many people interviewing, why would they not set the bar arbitrarily high? Two, the amount of people willing to cram and do almost anything for the job means they HAVE to set the bar high.

Now let's talk about the beef with start-up whiteboard interviews. Most of these interviewers have never been formally trained. They're just winging it. They ask questions that don't lend themselves well to a whiteboard. And they don't know what to look for during the interview!

A good whiteboard question does not rely on a trick or an obscure data structure. It doesn't have any gotchas that if you "get it" make it much easier.

A good question is slightly difficult to solve, but has many possible ways to solve it -- each with it's own trade offs. Ideally, none of them are much easier or harder than the others.

It's MUCH more impressive if a candidate can come up with 2-4 ways to solve a hard LeetCode easy problem or an easy LeetCode medium problem -- then for a candidate to happen to know the right combination of obscure knowledge to solve 1 LeetCode hard problem.

If you have 2-3 whiteboard interviews, and a candidate can come up with 2-4 totally different ways to solve the problem, and he materialize those thoughts into code -- there's a very slim chance s/he's bad.

The ideal candidate can discuss the tradeoffs of different solutions, and ask clarifying questions about the usage to figure out an optimal solution.

When you get to performance tweaks for edge cases, can the candidate weigh the pros and cons of adding the complexity for a certain gain.

Is it worth it to add some complexity to class to take an algorithm from 2n to n? Maybe. It depends on a lot of things...

I once worked with a guy who would ask a question that could be solved in O(N) time and O(N) space somewhat easily. But the question could also be solved in O(N) time and O(1) space IFF you knew some (discreet) discreet math. Almost everyone who didn't get the O(1) space solution he would say was a no hire.

Probably less than 10% of the engineers I've worked with have taken discreet math...

Another guy would ask a question that MOST candidates couldn't even comprehend, let alone come up with a solution. Most of the people that solved it would solve it O(n!) Or O(n^3). Occasionally, people would solve it O(n^2). But there is an O(n) solution. And that's what he was looking for. Literally NO ONE ever got it.

These are not good interview questions!

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#184
post #44

Its interesting how many of these companies have 'take home' challenges or projects. Even though the companies may say, "This should only take an hour", 99% of the time, it occupies my entire night/weekend, if not in coding but in thought. There's always something more you could do. Its presented as an objective test, but its very subjective, just as much as the whiteboard test. With the whiteboard test, as a candida…

> Also, take home challenges are probably very discriminatory towards older candidates with families. So maybe just as subtle way of age discrimination? I see this sentiment fairly frequently, and TBH, it completely baffles me. I am in my mid 40s. Yes, I don't have nearly as much energy nor desire to spend all weekend doing take-home programming assignments as I did 20 years ago. But if one candidate is willing to do…

[deleted]

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#185
post #44

Its interesting how many of these companies have 'take home' challenges or projects. Even though the companies may say, "This should only take an hour", 99% of the time, it occupies my entire night/weekend, if not in coding but in thought. There's always something more you could do. Its presented as an objective test, but its very subjective, just as much as the whiteboard test. With the whiteboard test, as a candida…

I have taken multiple of these take home assignments. One from Microsoft as well. What was a 2 day affair turned out to be a week long affair. I was asked to implement one of the iOS outlook features which involved multiple nesting of scrollviews in gridviews and what not. Took me 4 days and when I submitted the repo, the response I got was 'sorry this doesn't cut it and we can't proceed'. I mean, can't the reviewers…

This is the fundamental problem with take home tests. The amount of time the candidate spends is way too high compared to the amount of feedback they get.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#186
post #44

Its interesting how many of these companies have 'take home' challenges or projects. Even though the companies may say, "This should only take an hour", 99% of the time, it occupies my entire night/weekend, if not in coding but in thought. There's always something more you could do. Its presented as an objective test, but its very subjective, just as much as the whiteboard test. With the whiteboard test, as a candida…

> Also, take home challenges are probably very discriminatory towards older candidates with families. So maybe just as subtle way of age discrimination? I see this sentiment fairly frequently, and TBH, it completely baffles me. I am in my mid 40s. Yes, I don't have nearly as much energy nor desire to spend all weekend doing take-home programming assignments as I did 20 years ago. But if one candidate is willing to do…

You’re cis male and probably don’t do the majority of the housework or childcare, no? I highly doubt you’d hold this opinion if you were/did.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#187
post #44

Its interesting how many of these companies have 'take home' challenges or projects. Even though the companies may say, "This should only take an hour", 99% of the time, it occupies my entire night/weekend, if not in coding but in thought. There's always something more you could do. Its presented as an objective test, but its very subjective, just as much as the whiteboard test. With the whiteboard test, as a candida…

How many nights and weekends should be uselessly wasted on LeetCode to get in shape before the whiteboard interview? At least learning of new things in CSS will give you new useful knowledge which you can potentially apply in future.

How many nights and weekends should be uselessly wasted on homework for every interview?

At least whiteboard requieres practicing for real once in a life time.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's a reason [basic CS algorithms and data structures] are considered the fundamentals in CS, even if they are baked into most languages nowadays. A linked list is such a fundamental piece of technology, and so obvious to anyone that's been working in a language for a while, that I feel it's perfectly acceptable to rule out a candidate who cannot write one. It doesn't have to be perfect, and it doesn't have to…

The linked list is such a fundamental piece of technology that you never have to implement it. I mean, I understand the linked list quite well, but in my multi decade software career, I've probably actually implemented one less than once a decade. So I think it's a very unrealistic interview question, and will sigh quite hard (internally) when asked to implement one in an interview. You just can't please everyone...

> The linked list is such a fundamental piece of technology that you never have to implement it.

Is this a good reason not to ask it in an interview?

I'd expect any competent software engineer to be able to implement a linked list without too much trouble. It's maybe not a great interview question (depending on your point of view, you may not consider it to contribute much positive or negative hiring signal), but I don't consider it a "gotcha" question the way a lot of people seem to.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How is providing a code editor or text editor different than writing it out on the whiteboard? At least for me, it's vastly better. In an editor, I'm in my element, I have autocomplete, things work they way they usually do and everything is much more comfortable. I could even throw together some quick tests and test drive my code!

That's if your used to using your laptop not your desktop, you didn't forget to charge it, the WiFi is working, you aren't missing your mouse keyboard montitor, etc. Ive had candidates many fuck all that up and spend 15 minutes fixing the ergonomics. Guess what it's a 25 minute coding exercise, good luck. If I give them a laptop, same deal. After it all I still give them the option. Their computer ours or whiteboard.…

I'll admit this mostly comes from frustration standing by a whiteboard. If I did the same thing on a computer, I'd maybe just have a different set of frustrations.

As someone who does a lot of TDD, I is quite frustrating that a whiteboard can't run tests though...

What I have seen work well, from both sides, is interviewing by pair programming. Not for everyone, for sure.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#190
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're testing for their coding process, why do you make them write it out on a whiteboard? Why not provide them a code editor or at least text editor? I like whiteboard interviews, but they should be testing high level design ("describe solution in words / detail in pseudocode"), not coding skills.

How is providing a code editor or text editor different than writing it out on the whiteboard? I do a similar process and don't care if their syntax is exactly correct. I, maybe different from the person you're responding to, don't care if they use exact libraries in the precisely correct way. But I do care that they're able to come up with a plausible solution. At a point, I see people gripe about whiteboard intervi…

With white board you have to worry about

-legibility and penmanship -size of your letters because you don’t want to run out of space

These are things not related to programming or the problem at hand.

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