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A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

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Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#171

Post by VonGallifrey »

dmitrygr wrote: post #165
VonGallifrey wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you do the same for an in person interview? Why is it different for a take-home assignment?

In-person interview is both them and me spending time on each other. Take home is just you wasting time. Or do you suspect they will spend as many hours evaluating your answers as you took to create them?

Yes I do. Maybe even more. When I evaluate challenges for our company I do actually spend a lot more time going through the challenge then what it took me to solve it myself and I am not the only one evaluating each one. We also got a lot of feedback that our "estimation" of how long this challenge takes is very accurate, so I assume they take roughly the same amount of time that it took me to do it.

I don't think it is wasting time. Even with the very simple challenge we give out we are always surprised at the wide variety of solutions we get. We found it very useful in our hiring process.

Of course that is just us, but when I was on the other side the people evaluating me where asking detailed questions about my solution more often then not. So I assume it is fairly common that the companies actually do also spend a lot of time on each challenge.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#172

Post by crooked-v »

thomascgalvin wrote: post #130
BurningFrog wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The linked list is such a fundamental piece of technology that you never have to implement it. I mean, I understand the linked list quite well, but in my multi decade software career, I've probably actually implemented one less than once a decade. So I think it's a very unrealistic interview question, and will sigh quite hard (internally) when asked to implement one in an interview. You just can't please everyone...

I agree, if you implement a linked list in production code, you've almost certainly made a mistake. My point is that a linked list is such a simple concept that anyone with real programming experience should be able to write a basic implementation. It's a Shibboleth; I only care about your ability to perform the task because it tells me something else about you.

Fizzbuzz serves a similar role.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#174

Post by renholder »

PeterFBell wrote: post #127
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with all of your examples - it is discrimination if an employer says "your family will get in the way of you working off hours." What I find obnoxious, though, is when an employer has standard rules for everyone (e.g. "all prospective applicants must produce a 3 hour at home project as part of the interview process") and then balk at "discrimination" because you'd rather spend your time at your kid's soccer g…

The challenge with substantial take home tests is that they have the potential skew your applicant pool in a number of ways that are not ideal for your business. Firstly, as a general rule of thumb, the very best developers who are in the highest demand are unlikely to jump through the hoops, so immediately you're filtering out the very best applicants. As a business owner, that's not something I want to do. Secondly…

>...the very best developers who are in the highest demand are unlikely to jump through the hoops...

I think that this applies for the best anything but, conversely, companies still want them to jump through the hoops. You need to convince the company you're a worthwhile hire and the company, in all of it's arrogance and self-righteous glory, spends little to no effort convincing you its a worthwhile place to work[0].

You see this in questions like, "So, why do you want to work here?" If we're pointedly blunt, we could just say, "You're hiring for 'x', I can do 'x'; also, I like having money versus not having it," but that would be taken as arrogant and/or "not be a team player" or "not very interested in the company or the role".

Let's face it: The world is filling itself with the "drink the kool-aid" types and, so, companies use that as a gatekeeper, so to speak. "A good company fit." "We just want to see if you're a fit for the company."

An experienced is probably far less concerned with the pointless fact 'y' of your company versus, say, the company's culture or if you have matching contributions. If they've put in the time to make themselves an industry expert in something, then - of course - they're going to be a good company fit, at the end of the day. You're just looking for people who will be acquiescent and/or will jump through the hoops. ...but why...? For an entry-level position, I can understand it. For someone who's dev'ed for the last 10 years at 'zed' company, what function does that hurdle hope to accomplish, if not the aforementioned?

[0]-Not really true for Europe, though, so thank feck for that, but have seen it in the states.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#175

Post by jasonpeacock »

xfer wrote: post #153
codingdave wrote: post #80

Using a whiteboard, or even having trivia-like questions isn't the problem. The problem is that people think those tools are trying to test your ability to get the answer right. No. They are a medium through which you can see how someone approaches problems, their thought processes, how they structure their ideas, what they do when they get stuck, how well they communicate, how well they understand directions, how we…

> Quite the opposite, slamming in a memorized algorithm with the right answer has been a reason for 'no hire' in my experience. Because all it shows is that you can code. So the people who already know the solution to your problem are supposed to pretend to have an "aha moment"? Really this is one of the reasons the process doesn't work as well as you hope, people will memorize algorithms and pretend to have that gen…

After a few interviews, the fake "aha" moments are pretty obvious.

If someone does know the solution, ask them them to teach it to you - why is that the correct solution and not some other approach?

If the problem is really an "aha"-type with a single, explicit solution then it's not a good problem to be asking in an interview.

It really is about your approach, problem-solving technique, communication, etc.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#176

Post by spudlyo »

courtf wrote: post #56
jboy55 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I do whiteboard questions, its never to see someone regurgitate a common question. Its just nice to see someone solve a problem and what their thought patterns are. CS is pretty much an art, would you hire a violinist without hearing them in person?

Would you ask a violinist to draw the chords they would play on a whiteboard, or would you hand them a violin?

> Would you ask a violinist to draw the chords they would play on a whiteboard, or would you hand them a violin?

The violin is not generally considered chordal instrument. While you can technically pluck all the strings at once, or bow two strings at once, it's most often used for melodic and not harmonic parts. ;)

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#177

Post by FiddlyPack »

nostrebored wrote: post #138
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with all of your examples - it is discrimination if an employer says "your family will get in the way of you working off hours." What I find obnoxious, though, is when an employer has standard rules for everyone (e.g. "all prospective applicants must produce a 3 hour at home project as part of the interview process") and then balk at "discrimination" because you'd rather spend your time at your kid's soccer g…

I work 10 hours a day, my wife does as well, and we start at substantially different times. We have a child who can stay up until 11. If I'm doing multiple interviews (which everyone should be doing) and each requires 3 hours of my time (generous underestimate) then what am I going to do? Hire a sitter for a potential job for each of these companies? Give me whiteboarding interviews -- at least the studying is cross…

Last time I went interviewing, that’s exactly what I did for the take home projects: hire a sitter.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#178

Post by GuB-42 »

Are whiteboard interviews so bad that it justifies selecting companies against it?

It may not be the most pleasant or effective interview technique but just as candidates don't need to be perfect to be hired, neither are companies. It is not a red flag, not even a yellow flag. Just a minor annoyance in the recruiting process.

And while it may affect your chances of getting hired, out of arbitrary criteria, it is is at least one you can do something about relatively easily.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#179

Post by thoman23 »

From the article linked on the github site:

> "While the path to becoming a software engineer used to involve going to college and majoring in computer science, now candidates for engineering jobs also include autodidacts who taught themselves how to code and graduates of coding bootcamps, which teach web development fundamentals in a shortened period of time. This means non-traditional candidates can get a foothold in the industry without following a traditional path — but it doesn’t matter if they can’t get hired because of a fixation on memorizing trivia."

So now a computer science education is "trivia" and a one-month web development bootcamp is equivalent?

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#180

Post by esotericn »

renholder wrote: post #174
PeterFBell wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The challenge with substantial take home tests is that they have the potential skew your applicant pool in a number of ways that are not ideal for your business. Firstly, as a general rule of thumb, the very best developers who are in the highest demand are unlikely to jump through the hoops, so immediately you're filtering out the very best applicants. As a business owner, that's not something I want to do. Secondly…

> ...the very best developers who are in the highest demand are unlikely to jump through the hoops... I think that this applies for the best anything but, conversely, companies still want them to jump through the hoops. You need to convince the company you're a worthwhile hire and the company, in all of it's arrogance and self-righteous glory, spends little to no effort convincing you its a worthwhile place to work[0…

> You see this in questions like, "So, why do you want to work here?" If we're pointedly blunt, we could just say, "You're hiring for 'x', I can do 'x'; also, I like having money versus not having it," but that would be taken as arrogant and/or "not be a team player" or "not very interested in the company or the role".

I've never failed in taking the latter approach in any interview I've ever faced. (I've been rejected; that's different).

I tend to think this is more about whether you're... 'politically risk-averse', for lack of better terminology.

Almost all of the companies that have found a "real" response to that sort of question bad (e.g. given me the gasp or whatever) have been drone-shops. To some extent it was a sort of 'soft-reject' on my side. A minority in any case.

Maybe one day it'll hurt me. I'm not sure. I think it's a pretty good filter against working with dickheads.

I am in Europe, mind. For a month or so at least. ;)

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