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A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

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Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#61

Post by ppod »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #55
jboy55 wrote: post #44

Its interesting how many of these companies have 'take home' challenges or projects. Even though the companies may say, "This should only take an hour", 99% of the time, it occupies my entire night/weekend, if not in coding but in thought. There's always something more you could do. Its presented as an objective test, but its very subjective, just as much as the whiteboard test. With the whiteboard test, as a candida…

> Also, take home challenges are probably very discriminatory towards older candidates with families. So maybe just as subtle way of age discrimination? I see this sentiment fairly frequently, and TBH, it completely baffles me. I am in my mid 40s. Yes, I don't have nearly as much energy nor desire to spend all weekend doing take-home programming assignments as I did 20 years ago. But if one candidate is willing to do…

I agree with what you say as-is, but the other side of it is that the company might not be making optimal hiring decisions by doing this discrimination. A 22 year-old can choose to spend a full weekend on an interview task and do a great job, but once hired that doesn't mean they will actually work more hours (though they might). If we assume that once hired both the 20yo and the 40yo will work 40 hour weeks (i'm in europe), then it wouldn't be optimal to compare their take-homes evenly if the 20yo had spent way more time on it.

Anyway its complicated. Seems like on-site open-book 90 minute real-world problems would be a nice solution.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#62

Post by simplesleeper »

hopler wrote: post #52
nxc18 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ever been in a tense meeting? Most (almost all) verbal communication comes with time pressure. Speak too long (ramble) and your message is lost and your coworkers are annoyed. Don't speak fast enough and now someone else is using all the air in the room.

We shouldn't setting up interviews that are biased toward to hiring people who will make the company even more toxic and counterproductive.

What makes you think they'll be toxic and counterproductive? If, as you seem to think, whiteboarding is a test for this, then everyone should have whiteboarding tests where the good whiteboarders don't get a job.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#63

Post by jboy55 »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #55
jboy55 wrote: post #44

Its interesting how many of these companies have 'take home' challenges or projects. Even though the companies may say, "This should only take an hour", 99% of the time, it occupies my entire night/weekend, if not in coding but in thought. There's always something more you could do. Its presented as an objective test, but its very subjective, just as much as the whiteboard test. With the whiteboard test, as a candida…

> Also, take home challenges are probably very discriminatory towards older candidates with families. So maybe just as subtle way of age discrimination? I see this sentiment fairly frequently, and TBH, it completely baffles me. I am in my mid 40s. Yes, I don't have nearly as much energy nor desire to spend all weekend doing take-home programming assignments as I did 20 years ago. But if one candidate is willing to do…

The whole bent against white board questions is that they are unrealistic as to actual working conditions and thus are artificial. So if you are a successful engineer, using your work time efficiently, and yet, you have family obligations that prevent you from spending enough time as someone else on a take home challenge, is the take home challenge showing realistic 'working conditions'? Or is it a measure of freetime?

>If that's the case, that's a fine, very reasonable trade-off you've made to prioritize your family over your work.

I'd advise that if you are ever involved in a hiring situation you never write that down. "I'm sorry my project wasn't done so well, [my baby, pregnancy, illness, religious service] took most of my weekend".

That is a prime example of age/gender/disability discrimination. You should never assume someone's out side of work life presumes an inability to do the job during work hours.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#64

Post by gamma3 »

I've interviewed engineers on computer science problems on a whiteboard and those who did great turned out to do great on the actual job.

That's a one way implication. It is possible there are people who do poorly on coding interviews but great on the job.

Whiteboard coding is simply a quick test that has few false positives in my experience (around 40 interviews).

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#65

Post by jboy55 »

courtf wrote: post #56
jboy55 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I do whiteboard questions, its never to see someone regurgitate a common question. Its just nice to see someone solve a problem and what their thought patterns are. CS is pretty much an art, would you hire a violinist without hearing them in person?

Would you ask a violinist to draw the chords they would play on a whiteboard, or would you hand them a violin?

You would of course, you can do the exact same questions on a whiteboard with a shared computer. In my experience of doing either, some people are better at one or the other, but the challenge is essentially the same.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#66

Post by baxtr »

jboy55 wrote: post #44

Its interesting how many of these companies have 'take home' challenges or projects. Even though the companies may say, "This should only take an hour", 99% of the time, it occupies my entire night/weekend, if not in coding but in thought. There's always something more you could do. Its presented as an objective test, but its very subjective, just as much as the whiteboard test. With the whiteboard test, as a candida…

Well, we have made the experience that people that are not seriously considering to take the job are filtered out by a homework. It helps both to save a lot of time and energy interviewing people.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#67

Post by bradleyjg »

gigatexal wrote: post #2

Here’s a curve ball: has there ever been a study on companies that do be those that don’t do whiteboard interviews and the relative performance of the company or the staff?

Companies can, at least somewhat, figure out their false positive rate, but it’s very difficult to determine the false negative rate. Maybe someone like LinkedIn could do it depending on what their data collection agreement says (I’m betting it’s pretty permissive.)

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#68

Post by [deleted] »

simplesleeper wrote: post #33
solipsism wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These companies are also full of Directors and VPs whose very jobs, and their millions of dollars in salary, and their image as successful managers, rely on successful hiring choices. It's definitely not hard to imagine such people being biased toward whiteboard. It's also not hard to imagine them hiring outside firms to conduct studies and collect data. Speaking of bias, there's a lot of it around here toward the id…

"it's not hard to imagine that A" does not mean that A is happening. It doesn't even mean that P(A) is high. Your first paragraph also goes directly against what you are trying to prove. If their success relies on good hiring, then they would pick the best methods. If they haven't, they wouldn't be successful and would be replaced. What a load of twaddle .

[deleted]

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#69

Post by simplesleeper »

solipsism wrote: post #59
simplesleeper wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"it's not hard to imagine that A" does not mean that A is happening. It doesn't even mean that P(A) is high. Your first paragraph also goes directly against what you are trying to prove. If their success relies on good hiring, then they would pick the best methods. If they haven't, they wouldn't be successful and would be replaced. What a load of twaddle .

If you can find where I have said that anyting proves anything else, then I will certainly retract it. The only people talking about proof are those setting up unreachable goalposts. If their success relies on good hiring, then they would pick the best methods. If they haven't, they wouldn't be successful and would be replaced. That's faulty reasoning. Successful hiring choices do not necessarily depend on having use…

I do apologise. For a moment I thought I was talking to Alasdair. Having now checked your name properly, everything you wrote previously is seen in a new light and my post is the twaddle in this instance.

Agreed that things can always improve.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#70

Post by jboy55 »

bradleyjg wrote: post #60
jboy55 wrote: post #44

Its interesting how many of these companies have 'take home' challenges or projects. Even though the companies may say, "This should only take an hour", 99% of the time, it occupies my entire night/weekend, if not in coding but in thought. There's always something more you could do. Its presented as an objective test, but its very subjective, just as much as the whiteboard test. With the whiteboard test, as a candida…

Hacker rank allows a company to set up a time limited programming challenge. The company gets back a score based on how many of the tests were passed and the code itself. Maybe not a bad means of ensuring that “this should only take an hour of your time” really means that. The flip side is that fast and good aren’t one in the same, but I don’t think there’s any perfect answers here.

I've used similar online coding challenges, even proctored ones. I've had very mixed results, and the challengers are typically nearly identical to ones put on whiteboards. They are often used instead of phone screens.
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