A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews • Hacker News Board

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#51

Post by yters » Sat, Mar 02, 2019, 7:16 PM UTC

jboy55 wrote: post #44

Its interesting how many of these companies have 'take home' challenges or projects. Even though the companies may say, "This should only take an hour", 99% of the time, it occupies my entire night/weekend, if not in coding but in thought. There's always something more you could do. Its presented as an objective test, but its very subjective, just as much as the whiteboard test. With the whiteboard test, as a candida…

Yes, I've interviewed at companies that have interview type puzzles and coding, and take home tests. I greatly prefer the former regarding time use.

And, knowing the basic CS algorithms and data structures seems to be a good thing, since they make solving problems easier and lead to cleaner solutions. There's a reason they are considered the fundamentals in CS, even if they are baked into most languages nowadays.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#52

Post by hopler » Sat, Mar 02, 2019, 7:17 PM UTC

nxc18 wrote: post #19

vitovito wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But communication on-the-fly, on-your-feet, in a high pressure environment, which is what a whiteboard test is, is not most communication. Most communication gets thought about, drafted, revised, critiqued, socialized, ahead of distribution. If your whiteboarding comes after hours or days of consideration and review, that sounds like a great way to vet good communicators. Otherwise, aren't you optimizing only for spe…

Ever been in a tense meeting? Most (almost all) verbal communication comes with time pressure. Speak too long (ramble) and your message is lost and your coworkers are annoyed. Don't speak fast enough and now someone else is using all the air in the room.

We shouldn't setting up interviews that are biased toward to hiring people who will make the company even more toxic and counterproductive.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#53

Post by jboy55 » Sat, Mar 02, 2019, 7:18 PM UTC

yters wrote: post #51

jboy55 wrote: post #44

Its interesting how many of these companies have 'take home' challenges or projects. Even though the companies may say, "This should only take an hour", 99% of the time, it occupies my entire night/weekend, if not in coding but in thought. There's always something more you could do. Its presented as an objective test, but its very subjective, just as much as the whiteboard test. With the whiteboard test, as a candida…

Yes, I've interviewed at companies that have interview type puzzles and coding, and take home tests. I greatly prefer the former regarding time use. And, knowing the basic CS algorithms and data structures seems to be a good thing, since they make solving problems easier and lead to cleaner solutions. There's a reason they are considered the fundamentals in CS, even if they are baked into most languages nowadays.

When I do whiteboard questions, its never to see someone regurgitate a common question. Its just nice to see someone solve a problem and what their thought patterns are. CS is pretty much an art, would you hire a violinist without hearing them in person?

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#54

Post by solipsism » Sat, Mar 02, 2019, 7:18 PM UTC

dictum wrote: post #17

solipsism wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. The giant companies who do whiteboard interviews have studied this intensely, because making quality hires quickly is a critical part of their business. The people who say the industry should stop doing whiteboard interviews, in contrast, have no data.

Circular reasoning isn't data, though. "The procedures at companies X, Y and Z are correct because their operations require their procedures to be correct" sounds entirely accurate, but doesn't prove that the procedures are correct (or optimal, which is another question not covered by your argument: the status quo can be sufficient but not optimal )

That wasn't my argument. It's more like: these companies have almost infinite resources, and it's in their best interest to get it right.

It's of course not proof, but it's something.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#55

Post by hn_throwaway_99 » Sat, Mar 02, 2019, 7:19 PM UTC

jboy55 wrote: post #44

Its interesting how many of these companies have 'take home' challenges or projects. Even though the companies may say, "This should only take an hour", 99% of the time, it occupies my entire night/weekend, if not in coding but in thought. There's always something more you could do. Its presented as an objective test, but its very subjective, just as much as the whiteboard test. With the whiteboard test, as a candida…

> Also, take home challenges are probably very discriminatory towards older candidates with families. So maybe just as subtle way of age discrimination?

I see this sentiment fairly frequently, and TBH, it completely baffles me. I am in my mid 40s. Yes, I don't have nearly as much energy nor desire to spend all weekend doing take-home programming assignments as I did 20 years ago. But if one candidate is willing to do more work and preparation for an interview, that's not 'discrimination' - that's one person showing they are willing to put more effort into a job than another.

True, your family obligations may mean you don't have as much time to spend on that preparation. If that's the case, that's a fine, very reasonable trade-off you've made to prioritize your family over your work. But then it strikes me as entirely UNreasonable to accuse businesses of discrimination because they choose employees who have decided not to make that same trade-off.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#56

Post by courtf » Sat, Mar 02, 2019, 7:20 PM UTC

jboy55 wrote: post #53

yters wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I've interviewed at companies that have interview type puzzles and coding, and take home tests. I greatly prefer the former regarding time use. And, knowing the basic CS algorithms and data structures seems to be a good thing, since they make solving problems easier and lead to cleaner solutions. There's a reason they are considered the fundamentals in CS, even if they are baked into most languages nowadays.

When I do whiteboard questions, its never to see someone regurgitate a common question. Its just nice to see someone solve a problem and what their thought patterns are. CS is pretty much an art, would you hire a violinist without hearing them in person?

Would you ask a violinist to draw the chords they would play on a whiteboard, or would you hand them a violin?

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#57

Post by simplesleeper » Sat, Mar 02, 2019, 7:21 PM UTC

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #49

simplesleeper wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course the candidate is under more pressure than they would be at work - that's why we don't expect them to create a Leonardo masterpiece in front of us and we give the candidate the benefit of the doubt. You would be surprised at how poor some of the candidates are at this. Candidates who are unable to draw a few squares on a board to describe the last thing they worked on, and candidates who have never questione…

I think an important point is that you are assuming someone’s design communication moves along a spectrum from good to bad as you increase time pressure or stress, and so you can accordingly adjust your expectations along a spectrum and still be well-calibrated to evaluate the meaning of the candidate’s performance. I propose it doesn’t work like that at all. Rather, if someone’s brain is loaded with time pressure or…

And how do you propose a removal of all stress? Shall we hire everyone and fire them if they turn out to be dreadful after a week? That would ensure EVERYONE is under pressure all the time...

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#58

Post by userbinator » Sat, Mar 02, 2019, 7:22 PM UTC

jboy55 wrote: post #44

Its interesting how many of these companies have 'take home' challenges or projects. Even though the companies may say, "This should only take an hour", 99% of the time, it occupies my entire night/weekend, if not in coding but in thought. There's always something more you could do. Its presented as an objective test, but its very subjective, just as much as the whiteboard test. With the whiteboard test, as a candida…

I don't want the front eng engineer reviewing this code and saying, OMG, this is so old, NOHIRE!"

I know trend-chasing seems to be common in the web development industry, but I would be wary of anyone who likes to make such changes for the sake of showing off or otherwise.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#59

Post by solipsism » Sat, Mar 02, 2019, 7:25 PM UTC

simplesleeper wrote: post #33

solipsism wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These companies are also full of Directors and VPs whose very jobs, and their millions of dollars in salary, and their image as successful managers, rely on successful hiring choices. It's definitely not hard to imagine such people being biased toward whiteboard. It's also not hard to imagine them hiring outside firms to conduct studies and collect data. Speaking of bias, there's a lot of it around here toward the id…

"it's not hard to imagine that A" does not mean that A is happening. It doesn't even mean that P(A) is high. Your first paragraph also goes directly against what you are trying to prove. If their success relies on good hiring, then they would pick the best methods. If they haven't, they wouldn't be successful and would be replaced. What a load of twaddle .

If you can find where I have said that anyting proves anything else, then I will certainly retract it. The only people talking about proof are those setting up unreachable goalposts.

If their success relies on good hiring, then they would pick the best methods. If they haven't, they wouldn't be successful and would be replaced.

That's faulty reasoning. Successful hiring choices do not necessarily depend on having used the most ideal hiring practice. Past success does not mean things cannot be made better.

What a load of twaddle

I know this topic makes people emotional, but how about we keep it civil?

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#60

Post by bradleyjg » Sat, Mar 02, 2019, 7:26 PM UTC

jboy55 wrote: post #44

Its interesting how many of these companies have 'take home' challenges or projects. Even though the companies may say, "This should only take an hour", 99% of the time, it occupies my entire night/weekend, if not in coding but in thought. There's always something more you could do. Its presented as an objective test, but its very subjective, just as much as the whiteboard test. With the whiteboard test, as a candida…

Hacker rank allows a company to set up a time limited programming challenge. The company gets back a score based on how many of the tests were passed and the code itself.

Maybe not a bad means of ensuring that “this should only take an hour of your time” really means that.

The flip side is that fast and good aren’t one in the same, but I don’t think there’s any perfect answers here.