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Pagedraw is shutting down and going open source

pagedraw.io

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Re: Pagedraw is shutting down and going open source

#81

Post by CodeMage »

jpochtar wrote: post #79
CodeMage wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would love to get all these "Performance First! Its so easy" engineers in a room for a week. Except that's not the argument in the comment you're reacting to. Here's what the comment actually said: > Anyone with a reasonable amount of experience is often able to look ahead - well before any code is written - and see how performance could be better if road A is taken instead of road B. In other words, some optimiz…

Ironically, Knuth's full argument is exactly what we're saying, and what @abraae's taking out of context to criticize. See https://medium.com/@jaredpochtar/on-performance-and-software... and the full section on https://medium.com/@gabriel_20625/technical-lessons-from-bui... > Most of the code we wrote was fast enough (<2ms) that making it faster wouldn’t be noticeable, so it would definitely be a waste of time to opt…

> Ironically, Knuth's full argument is exactly what we're saying, and what @abraae's taking out of context to criticize.

See https://medium.com/@jaredpochtar/on-performance-and-software... and the full section on https://medium.com/@gabriel_20625/technical-lessons-from-bui...

I read the post in the second link before writing my original reply, because I don't like jumping into a discussion without making sure I understand what's going on ;)

I get that your intention was the same as Knuth's. And yes, I agree that @abraae took your advice out of context. That was, I believe, his point and it's certainly mine.

Specifically, when you look at that numbered list describing your code-writing practices, the numbers 1 and 3 stand out as hyperbolic. People will* take that stuff out of context and pass it around. Hell, people are already having a hard time staying reasonable in this very discussion thread.

I can't speak for anyone else, but don't take my comments personally. You guys made your own product and ran with it, which is more than I can say for myself, and I respect you for that. I also agree with what you're trying to say. However, I stand by my criticism of the hyperbole, because I've seen people who take that stuff too literally and proceed to write crap.

Re: Pagedraw is shutting down and going open source

#82

Post by jpochtar »

CodeMage wrote: post #81
jpochtar wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically, Knuth's full argument is exactly what we're saying, and what @abraae's taking out of context to criticize. See https://medium.com/@jaredpochtar/on-performance-and-software... and the full section on https://medium.com/@gabriel_20625/technical-lessons-from-bui... > Most of the code we wrote was fast enough (<2ms) that making it faster wouldn’t be noticeable, so it would definitely be a waste of time to opt…

> Ironically, Knuth's full argument is exactly what we're saying, and what @abraae's taking out of context to criticize. See https://medium.com/@jaredpochtar/on-performance-and-software... and the full section on https://medium.com/@gabriel_20625/technical-lessons-from-bui... I read the post in the second link before writing my original reply, because I don't like jumping into a discussion without making sure I under…

Yeah it's not super clear, but that list isn't of independent points: it's the steps we used to ensure a new feature is good code. "ignore performance" is explicitly step 3 of 5, where step 5 is "then you optimize"

Re: Pagedraw is shutting down and going open source

#83

Post by Twirrim »

cr0sh wrote: post #69
aspencer8111 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its comments like this that make people hate HN. I agree with their writeup fully. They focused wayyyy too much on performance and not enough on an MVP, pivoting, marketing, growth, and staying agile. I would love to get all these "Performance First! Its so easy" engineers in a room for a week. Hell, give em three weeks and they still wouldn't have a single line of code written. But they would still be arguing about…

How I've always put it: "Steak before sizzle" Get something done and working, even if performance sucks. Then do your performance logging and optimizations. Don't attempt to pre-optimize, because you may make a good situation worse. That doesn't preclude selecting correct algorithms and such beforehand; ie - don't be stupid about it. But don't try to be clever before you know you need it, either. Second thing I alway…

From an operations perspective, there are three critical things:

Security, Durability, Availability.

From my perspective, that's the order of importance too, but any one without the other two and you're not going to gain or retain customers.

Re: Pagedraw is shutting down and going open source

#84

Post by WhitneyLand »

aspencer8111 wrote: post #34
beachy wrote: post #11

One absolute rule for success in software is that there are no absolute rules. From their post mortem https://medium.com/@gabriel_20625/technical-lessons-from-bui... > Performance is never a justification for anything if you haven’t measured it This just isn't true. Anyone with a reasonable amount of experience is often able to look ahead - well before any code is written - and see how performance could be better if…

Its comments like this that make people hate HN. I agree with their writeup fully. They focused wayyyy too much on performance and not enough on an MVP, pivoting, marketing, growth, and staying agile. I would love to get all these "Performance First! Its so easy" engineers in a room for a week. Hell, give em three weeks and they still wouldn't have a single line of code written. But they would still be arguing about…

Can your comment help anyone?

It seems to be within the set of concepts and suggestions that cannot fully sink in and be truly appreciated until some degree of failure or experience relating to them has occurred.

Yeah, they read it. they get it. But they still don't get it, if you know what I mean.

But wow - this one sure does take on some laser etched permanence once it does get through.

Re: Pagedraw is shutting down and going open source

#85

Post by iliketosleep »

jameslk wrote: post #46

> Ultimately, we think Pagedraw is the wrong product. We think you can get 90% of the benefits of Pagedraw by just using JSX better. Our findings on this will be controversial, as they go entirely against the current “best practices,” so we’ll save them for a later blog post. I'd like to hear more about this. I'm not sure if it was ever turned into a blog post? I don't understand how using JSX differently can elimina…

You've probably seen their blog post from other comments, which doesn't directly address the issue. They essentially made a visual editor for developers - this is the crux of the issue. It's easy for developers to add, preview, and edit components without a purpose-built visual editor. They appear to suggest that following some of the "technical lessons" in their blog post is what these devs really need - not a visual editor. Having said that, a visual editor would be great for designers who don't want to get their hands dirty with coding.

Re: Pagedraw is shutting down and going open source

#86

Post by iliketosleep »

JesseAldridge wrote: post #39
pier25 wrote: post #31

We've been writing HTML for a couple of decades now. There have been dozens (hundreds?) of WYSIWYG editors and nothing has really caught on. My hypothesis is that unlike other mediums like paper or video, the elastic nature of the web makes understanding the positioning paradigms/box model/etc a necessity that no visual tool can really abstract. By the time you understand all that, it's just faster to write and maint…

SquareSpace, Wix, Shopify, and Elementor (a WordPress plugin) have all caught on. The first three are more than page-builders, but the page-builder is an important component. They're just not popular with the HN crowd.

So true, I have seen total beginners create nice looking pages with the tools you've mentioned, but if they stay in it for the long haul they find themselves limited by these tools - after which they either gain the technical skills required and move away from the page-builder or hire a dev. That's why I personally won't use such tools. They make it quicker to begin with, but I'll inevitably find myself fighting against the tool.

Re: Pagedraw is shutting down and going open source

#87

Post by mamurphy »

iliketosleep wrote: post #86
JesseAldridge wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SquareSpace, Wix, Shopify, and Elementor (a WordPress plugin) have all caught on. The first three are more than page-builders, but the page-builder is an important component. They're just not popular with the HN crowd.

So true, I have seen total beginners create nice looking pages with the tools you've mentioned, but if they stay in it for the long haul they find themselves limited by these tools - after which they either gain the technical skills required and move away from the page-builder or hire a dev. That's why I personally won't use such tools. They make it quicker to begin with, but I'll inevitably find myself fighting agai…

What kind of beginners? If someone wants to make websites for a living, of course they need to get the skills. If they just want one website, those tools are often enough.

Re: Pagedraw is shutting down and going open source

#88

Post by spyhi »

juangacovas wrote: post #47
aspencer8111 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its comments like this that make people hate HN. I agree with their writeup fully. They focused wayyyy too much on performance and not enough on an MVP, pivoting, marketing, growth, and staying agile. I would love to get all these "Performance First! Its so easy" engineers in a room for a week. Hell, give em three weeks and they still wouldn't have a single line of code written. But they would still be arguing about…

Well, as someone else said, it's not always black or white. Videogames MUST deliver performance, it's not only sales. Some desktop AND web applications could benefit from some performance boost here and there, and I mean being fast enough and not some abominations I've seen/heard about (minutes to get Excel files and examples like that, just because they're "thousands" of rows from a database). You know, sales is eve…

Ehhh, I don't think your example disproves the idea you're responding to. Perhaps video games MUST deliver performance in the end, but often game prototypes are not performant at all for the sake of rapid experimentation, and are only optimized towards the end of development once all the systems are set in stone...which is what's being advocated for here.

Re: Pagedraw is shutting down and going open source

#89

Post by iliketosleep »

mamurphy wrote: post #87
iliketosleep wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So true, I have seen total beginners create nice looking pages with the tools you've mentioned, but if they stay in it for the long haul they find themselves limited by these tools - after which they either gain the technical skills required and move away from the page-builder or hire a dev. That's why I personally won't use such tools. They make it quicker to begin with, but I'll inevitably find myself fighting agai…

What kind of beginners? If someone wants to make websites for a living, of course they need to get the skills. If they just want one website, those tools are often enough.

I'm not referring to individuals who wants to make money as a web devs. What I'm referring to is the entrepreneur who lacks technical skills but is able to put up a nice little website using page-builders, and after a while wants to take it further and add features not supported by the page-builder.

Re: Pagedraw is shutting down and going open source

#90

Post by PakG1 »

spyhi wrote: post #88
juangacovas wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, as someone else said, it's not always black or white. Videogames MUST deliver performance, it's not only sales. Some desktop AND web applications could benefit from some performance boost here and there, and I mean being fast enough and not some abominations I've seen/heard about (minutes to get Excel files and examples like that, just because they're "thousands" of rows from a database). You know, sales is eve…

Ehhh, I don't think your example disproves the idea you're responding to. Perhaps video games MUST deliver performance in the end , but often game prototypes are not performant at all for the sake of rapid experimentation, and are only optimized towards the end of development once all the systems are set in stone...which is what's being advocated for here.

In the old days, customers would never be able to get their hands on video game prototypes. You had one shot. Today, it's obviously a bit different, though many companies still treat it like one shot anyway.
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