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YouTube bans comments on all videos of children

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Re: YouTube bans comments on all videos of children

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that a reason is used (and has been used) to justify censorship unjustly does not mean that the reason itself is invalid, or that there is no such thing as good censorship; most people agree that some censorship (of threats or child pornography etc.) can be a great positive force. There is no reason behind the idea that because we can't totally differentiate between good and bad where the line is blurry then…

The debate isn't whether we can do any sort of "good" censoring, but whether we should do any censoring at all. (Just to be clear, I'm narrowing the scope under discussion to ideas. Of course things like child pornography should be censored due to the direct harm.) I reject the idea that society should welcome some authority having control over ideas such that ones deemed "bad" enough by a large enough majority shoul…

Your claim is that some form of censorship may be permissible if the harm is direct, but I think this carries with it a certain ideological slant - what harm is 'direct' and 'indirect' has vastly different consequences; for instance, prevention of direct harm may be sufficient to protect children, but it probably isn't enough to protect the proliferation of racist or sexist ideas which have historically led to widespread oppression on those fronts. What is your threshold for harm?

Here we see the vacuity of the harm principle: one can claim anything is (or isn't) harmful in order to attach their favorite idea to it. As an example, some people may be said to be harmed simply by the knowledge that someone is watching pornography in their house. You'd likely say that doesn't "count" as harm - well then what does? As it turns out, controlling speech under your schema is simply a matter of defining what counts as harm and what doesn't. Yet philosophers such as Joel Feinberg and Catherine MacKinnon have pointed out, very few people (if any) would like to live in a society in which only harmful speech (or acts, since there is no meaningful distinction between speech and acts other than invoking body-mind dualism) is not permitted.

Then we get to ideas: who's to say that threats or child porn can't carry ideas in them? In censoring them, aren't we censoring ideas too? Some would say the idea that "it's not so bad to have sex with children" is encoded in every instance of child pornography. What if I made my threat into an art piece?

Re: YouTube bans comments on all videos of children

#282
post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a funny thing to say. I take it that you are against freedom of expression and speech? Because both of those will (hopefully) never be censored in the way you desire. Remember, nothing in those comments was illegal or even broke the actual rules of basically any online service. > The option available to them is clear, it's just not something anyone is willing to accept: connecting untrustworthy anonymous third…

This reply is needlessly personal, are you materially affected by this issue somehow? > Would you ban beaches as well, because creeps might watch others on a beach? No, but nor would I pretend people can shower and change without cubicles, or permit the nearby village to drown during the first storm because I deluded myself in the belief there was no need for a seawall. There is no rationality to be found in an absol…

>This reply is needlessly personal, are you materially affected by this issue somehow?

No, but you're saying that if we can't limit people from posting bad things then we should remove or change the ability to post. Take that same idea into real life. It's impossible to stop people from saying and doing things without excessively infringing on their freedoms and as a result people say and do bad things. You're arguing that we should excessively infringe on their freedoms to prevent that from happening. This leads me to believe that you are against freedom of expression and speech.

>There is no rationality to be found in an absolute "save the children at all costs" position, much as there is none in "freedom of speech at all costs".

But you didn't express nuance. You categorically said that if a service can't do it, then the service needs to change. If you want to paint a picture of nuance, then express nuance.

And I would argue that freedom of speech is a necessity for a free society, meaning that it is almost "at all costs". I've seen what the Soviet era did with people. I don't want to live in such a society.

Re: YouTube bans comments on all videos of children

#283

This seems like a ham-fisted solution does it not? Channels like ChadTronic play on the nostalgia of being a kid back in the '80s and '90s, yet AFAIK has been unable to enable comments on any of his videos. The weird, funny comments are a big part of the experience in those kinds of videos. Some tropes of the show itself have been built around the comment section. Would it make more sense to instead target the patter…

>Lastly, does forcing these comments off negatively impact the rankings of these creators? Comments have traditionally played into the engagement of any said video and had an (understood) impact on how a video ranks on release. Are these channels now just permanently stunted in their future growth?

1) Yes. 2) Yes.

Youtube has taken this action without an overall plan. One of the Youtube creators was told as much in a chat with youtube support. (https://youtu.be/oeI0-ijIotk?t=504) They indicated to him that some creators will be negatively impacted until everything is worked out. The program is working just like they planned. lol

Re: YouTube bans comments on all videos of children

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the point. Most things in life aren't settled as easily as the flat Earth debate. Google could also do this on something that's far more controversial (eg political) and justify it in the same manner. Imagine if Google were against climate change and every video about climate change gets a link to some website that says it's not true. That wouldn't be acceptable, would it? But being okay with Google do…

> But being okay with Google doing this for flat-earth also makes it more acceptable for Google to do it for climate change. Sounds great, I'm all for it. Sure the truth can be complicated, but I fail to see how implementing software that auto-links to a relevant article on Wikipedia causes Google to be the arbiter of truth.

>Sounds great, I'm all for it.

Even if Google thinks climate change isn't man-made and links to sources backing that up?

Re: YouTube bans comments on all videos of children

#286
post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reply is needlessly personal, are you materially affected by this issue somehow? > Would you ban beaches as well, because creeps might watch others on a beach? No, but nor would I pretend people can shower and change without cubicles, or permit the nearby village to drown during the first storm because I deluded myself in the belief there was no need for a seawall. There is no rationality to be found in an absol…

> This reply is needlessly personal, are you materially affected by this issue somehow? No, but you're saying that if we can't limit people from posting bad things then we should remove or change the ability to post. Take that same idea into real life. It's impossible to stop people from saying and doing things without excessively infringing on their freedoms and as a result people say and do bad things. You're argui…

> You categorically said that if a service can't do it, then the service needs to change

Would you categorically state that if the service can't do it, the service should continue in its present form?

Walls are some of the oldest inventions of civilization, and YouTube currently lacks /any/ walls. I'm arguing for some walls in the right places, you're arguing for no walls whatsoever. We have a difference of opinion, it's fine.

Re: YouTube bans comments on all videos of children

#287
post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - they've admitted a serious problem exists that they were unwilling to deal with until external pressure forced them to (i.e. they can't be trusted to self regulate) No, they didn't. The problem that Youtube is dealing with is advertisers leaving, not the actual comments. Dealing with the problem of advertisers leaving is different from dealing with those comments. It's unclear whether dealing with those comments…

> Firstly, kids on YouTube were NOT impacted by this Unfortunately this is inaccurate. There are billions of daily adolescent YouTube users, some of whom entering puberty that were exposed and continue to be exposed to the recommendation algorithm that created this mess in the first place, and for periods running into hours every evening. At such an early stage in development, it is absolutely the company's duty of c…

>Unfortunately this is inaccurate. There are billions of daily adolescent YouTube users, some of whom entering puberty that were exposed and continue to be exposed to the recommendation algorithm that created this mess in the first place, and for periods running into hours every evening.

You are talking about a different issue.

>At such an early stage in development, it is absolutely the company's duty of care to ensure that a 5 year old is not being sent up a gradient of a recommendation system that is encouraging them (with the help of the comments just removed) to view people of their own age in a sexual manner.

Why would it be the company's duty of care and not the parent's? The parent should be the one that controls what the child consumes, not some nameless company or the government.

>I agree with the idea of allowing children outside, but as per my reply to your previous comment, not if that means spending all day in the back yard of the village creepy old man.

Again, this should be done by the parent, not by a faceless corporation or the government. It is the parent's job to deal with this.

Re: YouTube bans comments on all videos of children

#288
post #25

What a ham fisted reaction to the controversy. Now all content creators have to ensure that no kids are ever in their videos, which includes background footage and movie clips. I think this is a major problem with our current centralized model of the internet where giant corporations make all the rules. Large corporations have no ability to rationally judge situations or inject nuance into discussions. They simply ta…

I disagree that this is a problem with giant corporations. I think the problem lies in the public that demands blood on everything. There is no solution to the problem that youtube is being asked to solve other than simply banning all videos with kids in them.

Agreed. This absurd to me. I moderate my children's use of the internet and we don't have problems.

All I want are more and more fine grained parental controls. I'd love to be able to disable specific features per channel.

Re: YouTube bans comments on all videos of children

#289

I think the time is ripe for a YouTube competitor to take chunk of its market share. YouTube has an impossible task of making a video hosting platform for everybody. Kids definitely need a particularly safe space to upload and to have supervision of some sort. Even adults don't necessarily want to be subject to the weirdness of the internet. Others really want a completely free, wild and weird platform. It doesn't ma…

Scalable web services and robust home internet with high upload rates should be the solution in my opinion. Any centralized corporate service is inherently limited. The internet should be the platform.

I agree there’s no reason it has to be a corporation. It just has to simpler for non-tech people to do creative stuff online and have others see it. YouTube makes it extremely easy, that’s why they have such dominance.

Re: YouTube bans comments on all videos of children

#290
post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Firstly, kids on YouTube were NOT impacted by this Unfortunately this is inaccurate. There are billions of daily adolescent YouTube users, some of whom entering puberty that were exposed and continue to be exposed to the recommendation algorithm that created this mess in the first place, and for periods running into hours every evening. At such an early stage in development, it is absolutely the company's duty of c…

> Unfortunately this is inaccurate. There are billions of daily adolescent YouTube users, some of whom entering puberty that were exposed and continue to be exposed to the recommendation algorithm that created this mess in the first place, and for periods running into hours every evening. You are talking about a different issue. > At such an early stage in development, it is absolutely the company's duty of care to e…

> Why would it be the company's duty of care and not the parent

It is the company's duty of care for the same reason that

- it is the city's duty of care if the child goes outside and falls down an unmaintained manhole

- it is the school's duty of care if a fire extinguisher malfunctions and kills the child

- it is the driver's duty of care if the child crosses the road and gets struck on a green crossing

In all these cases, the entities assume a certain privilege to operate due to the trust placed in them that enables the freedom for the child to go outside whatsoever. If that duty does not exist, then there is no trust the child can safely leave home unattended. In effect what you're arguing for is total control from the parent -- a much worse outcome for a child than self-moderation on behalf of the trusted entities they would otherwise have had the freedom to interact with.

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