Taxing Uber and Lyft rides is L.A's latest plan to free up congested roads • Hacker News Board

Re: Taxing Uber and Lyft rides is L.A's latest plan to free up congested roads

#321

Post by thisisweirdok » Thu, Feb 28, 2019, 2:58 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #296

thisisweirdok wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that ride sharing isn't providing a service with a realistic and sustainable price. In Boston I can get a 15 minute Uber pool trip door-to-door for $3. They're undercutting public transportation and traditional taxi services that need to operate with a realistic budget that isn't fueled by billions of VC dollars.

If there are two people in the Pool on average, $6 for a 15 minute ride feels like it could be a sustainable price to me. When Pool first launched in Boston/Cambridge, I used to almost always be solo. Now, I would say that my average occupancy is 1.75 to 2 on Pool rides. It's also to the point that Pool rides seem to be cheap when they would result in Pooling and almost the same price as UberX when they'd more likely…

You're not talking a lot into account, especially that drivers are freelancers who own their own vehicles. That $6 per 15 minutes turns into $24/hr (if you're literally non-stop taking fares, which is impossible).

Then you have maintenance, wear, healthcare, retirement, etc... Just accounting for fuel and maintenance these drivers are making minimum wage without any benefits, even if they drive full-time.

The so-called gig economy is bullshit that erodes just about everything it touches, from workers rights to public services.

Re: Taxing Uber and Lyft rides is L.A's latest plan to free up congested roads

#322

Post by sokoloff » Thu, Feb 28, 2019, 5:10 PM UTC

thisisweirdok wrote: post #321

sokoloff wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there are two people in the Pool on average, $6 for a 15 minute ride feels like it could be a sustainable price to me. When Pool first launched in Boston/Cambridge, I used to almost always be solo. Now, I would say that my average occupancy is 1.75 to 2 on Pool rides. It's also to the point that Pool rides seem to be cheap when they would result in Pooling and almost the same price as UberX when they'd more likely…

You're not talking a lot into account, especially that drivers are freelancers who own their own vehicles. That $6 per 15 minutes turns into $24/hr (if you're literally non-stop taking fares, which is impossible). Then you have maintenance, wear, healthcare, retirement, etc... Just accounting for fuel and maintenance these drivers are making minimum wage without any benefits, even if they drive full-time. The so-call…

That's also about the worst case for the driver. There are many Ubers I take that are over $2/mile or $60+/hr.

Re: Taxing Uber and Lyft rides is L.A's latest plan to free up congested roads

#323

Post by bzbz » Thu, Feb 28, 2019, 11:01 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #294

omouse wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linear is more predictable and easier to manage, mentally, so I don't think that will change any time soon.

Exponential is linear in log scale, so maybe let's just say that a ticket will cost you N zeros, where N is equal to number of tickets you had in the past month.

That’s not a bad way of phrasing it

Re: Taxing Uber and Lyft rides is L.A's latest plan to free up congested roads

#324

Post by Fins » Fri, Mar 01, 2019, 7:38 AM UTC

Balero wrote: post #319

Fins wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you have liters and gallons backwards, unless the British gallon had shrank significantly with the Brexit.

umm, nope British Gallon = 4.546090L US Gallon = 3.785412 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallon Though I had forgotten that the US used a different one. So my maths is off above. Thanks for pointing that out! Using the US Gallon: £1.21 per liter == $1.61 per liter == $6.09 per Gallon.

I meant that "1L = 4.54609 Gallons " seems to be off a bit.

Re: Taxing Uber and Lyft rides is L.A's latest plan to free up congested roads

#325

Post by osdiab » Fri, Mar 01, 2019, 7:57 AM UTC

smallgovt wrote: post #173

How do you guys think the trend from public transit to rideshare will look once self-driving cars begin ramping up? I imagine that without the cost of labor from the driver, rideshares should become dirt cheap. Will anybody use public transit in 10 years? If not, the congestion problem will get many times worse.

It's the classic induced demand phenomenon - when roads are expanded, people drive a lot more, and congestion remains the same. Same thing with transit - people ride it up to the point where it's miserably crowded.

Both are signs that our infrastructure in either form is unable to service the maximal demand society places on it, so people ultimately decide not to go places because of the cost of doing so (in terms not just of cash, but also comfort and time).

I think people will use rideshares only to the point that congestion is precisely miserable enough those who choose to rideshare to tolerate it.

So what might happen is that mass transit remains equally as congested, just more people are taking trips than they were before because the capacity of the whole system has increased.

It's also the case that, unlike self-driving car infrastructure, trains are far more scalable - in places that actually invest in their mass transit infrastructure, I think mass transit can compete pretty well the more the municipality invests in train lines and stuff.

But to assume that self-driving cars will save cities that don't have transit infrastructure—that might be true for very sparsely populated, small cities, but for all the American cities that lack public transit infrastructure, I think the situation will only change marginally.

Re: Taxing Uber and Lyft rides is L.A's latest plan to free up congested roads

#326

Post by kmlx » Fri, Mar 01, 2019, 2:57 PM UTC

kbos87 wrote: post #304

kmlx wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if your purpose is to make people hate politicians and government even more than they do now, then this would be a good way to do it. but this idea that somehow the state/government knows better is very condescending.

I’m not saying they know better. I’m saying that what Uber and Lyft are doing is extracting a margin at the cost of drivers and taxpayers without having built any real competitive moat. Cities could do the same thing, leverage their control over airports, streets, and other public infrastructure to build a distinct advantage over Uber and Lyft, and reinvest the earnings from this capital light business model back int…

> I’m saying that what Uber and Lyft are doing is extracting a margin at the cost of drivers and taxpayers without having built any real competitive moat.

I agree with the competitive moat issue. Not ideal for a business, but not a deal breaker.

> Cities could do the same thing, leverage their control over airports, streets, and other public infrastructure to build a distinct advantage over Uber and Lyft, and reinvest the earnings from this capital light business model back into the capital intensive but ultimately better for society public transit system.

Thanks for the explanation. It's a bit clearer to me know. I don't see a need to tax Uber/Lyft when considering that the main fault lies in the municipality failing to make owning a car so expensive that people would rather take the bus. Good examples come from Europe: owning a car in some places costs you so much, that taking an Uber/tram/subway/bus is the only way to go. Thus, fewer people have cars. And thus politicians focus on public transport. As long as we're talking taxes, why tax a taxi service when you can instead tax the huge number of people that actually don't need cars?

Re: Taxing Uber and Lyft rides is L.A's latest plan to free up congested roads

#327

Post by themoonbus » Fri, Mar 01, 2019, 10:58 PM UTC

thegayngler wrote: post #162

themoonbus wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say "even with higher pricing", but are also saying that higher pricing (due to taxes) would ruin the services? Uber and Lyft fares are unsustainably low right now, and at their current prices, they depress public transit interest and ridership. But what happens in 5 years when these ride sharing companies need to turn a profit? Self driving cars is potentially a solution, I suppose, but will it be ready at that…

I think the popularity of Uber and Lyft is a direct result of the lack of adequate city transit solutions. If big city transit was robust and at least at the level of NYC or more people would likely opt for it and the big cities could plan their real estate around it better.

Funnily enough, I am one of those people-my partner and I have one car between us (in LA), and I rely pretty heavily on Uber pool (or the Lyft equivalent) to get around on a day to day basis.

However, it feels unsustainable. I can't imagine the fares remaining this low, and because of people like me, transit ridership is declining. I don't think these rideshare companies can sustain such low prices indefinitely, and my guess is it's delaying real improvements to transit infrastructure.

That's just my hunch though.