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Why Drugs That Work in Mice Don't Work in Humans

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Re: Why Drugs That Work in Mice Don't Work in Humans

#61
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in pre-clinical pharma research, and this isn't really true in my experience, but there are a couple caveats. At least in my experience, we wouldn't run the same study again, but we might change the model. There are a few models that all point to a similar indication, so we might try both. If a treatment works in one but not the other, it's definitely seen as less strong evidence of efficacy, unless there's so…

I'm interested in how compounds are chosen for medical research. Do you just start with a wide range of compounds which you are able to make and fire them at a range of different potential medical issues? That seems staggeringly unlikely to find something useful. I know some drugs are extracted by isolating a compound from a traditional remedy. That obviously makes sense.

In my (admittedly indirect) experience, there's always a specific medical issue being targeted, and usually a specific biochemical system (i.e. protein binding partner). Very occasionally, they end up with a drug for a condition completely different from what they were trying to treat, but that's the exception. (Viagra was one of these; I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall when they realized the implications of the side effect profile from the original trial.)

Re: Why Drugs That Work in Mice Don't Work in Humans

#62
post #57
post #51

We discard aborted fetuses because they are "clump of cells" and Planned Parenthood already sells off their body parts, why not take the next logical leap and test in utero of a woman that doesn't want their baby? (It's a serious question, regardless of the fact that society has reached the point where we do not apply intristic value to a baby inside the womb, only outside the womb and "wanted", biologically speaking…

> society has reached the point where we do not apply intristic value to a baby inside the womb, only outside the womb This is completely false, and a typical mischaracterisation of abortion by anti-choice advocates. If what you said were true, abortion would generally be permitted up until the moment of birth. Yet virtually nobody wants that. Abortions are performed in extremely early stages of gestation. Where exac…

> and a typical mischaracterisation of abortion by anti-choice advocates.

Be that as it may, whatever the "anti-choice" advocates are doing (I certainly don't know) this is my own opinion using my own reasoning and conclusions. You either value life or you don't. I don't subscribe to the unscientific viewpoint that at some magical point after gestation, a unique human biological life somehow went from being not valuable to valuable.

> abortion would generally be permitted up until the moment of birth. Yet virtually nobody wants that.

The recent events in the democratic party -- Governor Northam's statements, former Presidential candidate Clinton's desire to repeal the Hyde amendment, and the senate vote to block the Abortion Survivor Act -- strongly disagree with this. Sorry the cat is out of the bag, and you can't hide behind the euphemisms anymore. But it is OK -- just own it.

> such as thought, and pain reception

I am glad you said this! Dr. Jean A. Wright, a pediatric physician that graduated from Johns Hopkins states,

"After 20 weeks of gestation [18 weeks post-fertilization], an unborn child has all the prerequisite anatomy, physiology, hormones, neurotransmitters, and electrical current to “close the loop” and create the conditions needed to perceive pain…The development of the perception of pain begins at the sixth week of life. By 20 weeks [18 weeks postfertilization], and perhaps even earlier, all the essential components of anatomy, physiology, and neurobiology exist to transmit painful sensations from the skin to the spinal cord and to the brain."

Glad we agree there.

> but don’t invent irrational reasons because they’re easier to attack. That’s deeply dishonest.

You are the one building a strawmen here, maybe look in the mirror?

Re: Why Drugs That Work in Mice Don't Work in Humans

#64
post #46

How many of these drugs actually do work in mice? Every study that comes out on the topic shows at least 50% and often closer to 90% of preclinical research does not replicate or even is not replicable in principle.

Research and drug development are pretty different leagues. A research paper might be 3 researchers with 20 mice. When your looking at preclinical trials it’s more like 300 people and 5000 mice per trial and god knows how many trials before something goes through.

The reproducibility crisis is happening in academia. There isn’t that much room for uncertainty when it comes to industrial drug development. You won’t find drugs making it all the way to market only for “another group” to be incapable of reproducing the effect.

Re: Why Drugs That Work in Mice Don't Work in Humans

#65
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in pre-clinical pharma research, and this isn't really true in my experience, but there are a couple caveats. At least in my experience, we wouldn't run the same study again, but we might change the model. There are a few models that all point to a similar indication, so we might try both. If a treatment works in one but not the other, it's definitely seen as less strong evidence of efficacy, unless there's so…

I'm interested in how compounds are chosen for medical research. Do you just start with a wide range of compounds which you are able to make and fire them at a range of different potential medical issues? That seems staggeringly unlikely to find something useful. I know some drugs are extracted by isolating a compound from a traditional remedy. That obviously makes sense.

It's just about every way you could imagine. I work at a large company, where my department has something like 75 people in 25 labs working on one disease area. Anything we think we can build a case for is worth considering, and we'll run down lots of leads that don't turn up anything. We get chemists involved to make tool compounds that might hit your target pathway, and eventually, if you build enough evidence to convince management, you'll put together a team. That team will involve a few biology labs, a chemist (could be a biochemist) or two, a toxicologist, and a pharmacokinetics person (ADME).

Then, if it's a chemical target, they'll make thousands of compounds to test in their preliminary tests to make sure the compound very basically attaches to the target. The ones that make it past that might make it into a cell-based assay then rodents. The path each treatment takes through specific assays is different for every project depending on the specifics, but it generally follows that progression.

Re: Why Drugs That Work in Mice Don't Work in Humans

#66
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about giving confidence to people, the existing methods are part of the fundamental idea of the scientific method. Dr. Hegde's claim of body types doesn't really mean anything until there's evidence to back it up. And modern medical trials are crafted and investigated with a wide variety of statistical tools to determine the exact impact of a treatment method. Only if his claims can stand up to this rigorous…

Agree. Unfortunately, this is never going to happen. The few still practicing Ayurveda properly come from a background where they learned it from their ancestors within their family and practicing it for free and never allow commercialization of their knowledge. But they can gladly share the knowledge to people who want to learn. Food, Education and Medicine/health are the 3 things the practitioners in Indian culture…

> How is that turning out for everyone?

Dramatically increased life expectancy, reduced childhood mortality, etc.

There are problems with the modern health system, but it does seem to produce much better outcomes than what came before.

Re: Why Drugs That Work in Mice Don't Work in Humans

#67
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in pre-clinical pharma research, and this isn't really true in my experience, but there are a couple caveats. At least in my experience, we wouldn't run the same study again, but we might change the model. There are a few models that all point to a similar indication, so we might try both. If a treatment works in one but not the other, it's definitely seen as less strong evidence of efficacy, unless there's so…

I'm interested in how compounds are chosen for medical research. Do you just start with a wide range of compounds which you are able to make and fire them at a range of different potential medical issues? That seems staggeringly unlikely to find something useful. I know some drugs are extracted by isolating a compound from a traditional remedy. That obviously makes sense.

This is a huge field of research and development, with a number of different approaches.

Almost always, though, you are starting with a particular medical problem in mind, so the first step is to develop some kind of assay for detecting compounds which might be useful in treating it. Ideally, this would be a simple biochemical reaction, but it might be something involving cell culture.

For example, if you wanted to find new painkillers, you might look for chemicals inhibiting cyclooxygenase (as ibuprofen does). You can buy kits for doing that assay commercially [1], where you prepare a solution of the enzyme, add your test chemical, then add a substrate which emits light when the cyclooxygenase breaks it down, and measure the intensity of light produced.

If you wanted to find new anti-cancer drugs, you might look for drugs which cause proliferating cells to get stuck in the metaphase step of the cell cycle (as paclitaxel does). You would plate out some rapidly proliferating cells, add your test chemical, wait twelve hours, then fix them, stain them with a DNA-specific dye, and use a microscope to count the number of cells in metaphase (which is quite distinctive [2]). This is a lot more tedious than the cyclooxygenase assay, but we have robots that can handle liquids and plates of cells, and operate microscopes, and process images, so it can be highly automated, at a cost.

Then you take your assay and go hunting for molecules.

One approach is indeed just to start with a wide range of compounds. You can get libraries of small molecules [3] [4], so you give them to your robots (or graduate students), and put them all through your assay to find which ones work.

You can also start with mixtures of compounds, perhaps obtained from natural sources. For example, you could go and collect twenty species of fungus or sea sponge, grind them up, and put the extracts of each through your assay. If anything works, you then fractionate the extract somehow (eg by chromatography), and put each fraction through your assay. You pick fractions which work, fractionate them further, assay the sub-fractions, and repeat until you have got a pure substance with some activity, which you then characterise. Here, you can knowledge of ecology and biology to pick likely species - for instance, fungi are a good source of antibiotics, because they have to make antibiotics to defend themselves in their natural habitat.

Or you could start with some knowledge of the structure and function of the target (from X-ray crystallography, NMR, and good old fashioned biochemistry), and try to rationally design a molecule which will bind to and inhibit it. Computer simulations are useful here. Combinatorial methods let you design hundreds of molecules which might work, and then put them all through the assay.

Or you could hope that an antibody will do the job, and inject your target protein into some mice, wait for them to make an immune reaction to it, then collect their blood, extract B-lymphocytes, culture them in bulk, purify antibodies from the culture, then assay the antibodies. If something works, split the lymphocytes into single-cell clones, and assay each clone's antibodies one by one.

I don't work in this field, so my knowledge of these techniques is from undergraduate study, and one relative who grinds up sponges. It's possible some of the approaches i mention are obsolete, or were only ever speculative.

[1] https://www.abcam.com/cyclooxygenase-cox-activity-assay-kit-...

[2] https://www.le.ac.uk/bl/phh4/roottip.htm

[3] https://www.tdi.ox.ac.uk/small-compound-libraries

[4] https://wiki.nci.nih.gov/display/NCIDTPdata/Compound+Sets

Re: Why Drugs That Work in Mice Don't Work in Humans

#68
post #40

Any mice trial should use 4 different breeds: one of the academic hallmark (black6 or balb/c) for publication purpose, one that represent your model (or so you think) because that’s the logical thing to do, and a truly wild type one (captured in the wild) to capture the noise. Even this bias longevity piece needs to do that. This 4 breeds will all have different immune system, cognitive behavior and lifestyles, which…

That makes 3...

The 4th is a group of dead mice, to make sure you don't accidentally start a zombie apocalypse.

Re: Why Drugs That Work in Mice Don't Work in Humans

#69

"Only 14% of drugs that are tested on humans succeed in demonstrating effectiveness[1], and all of these are drugs that have been found efficacious in animals, so successful animal studies are very far from a guarantee by themselves." Regardless of the reason, this seems fine/workable. Animal studies are a step in the funnel. I assume the step from petri dish to mouse is similar. I wonder how many false negatives get…

The failure in humans of stuff that worked in mice is actually the biggest driver of the cost of drug development

According to a widely cited paper on the cost of drug development [0], phase 2 has the lowest probability of succes of any stage in the funnel at 30-40%. Phase 2 is generally the first time a drugs effectiveness is studied in humans. It can cost $50-100M+ to get a drug through a phase 2 study

One of the major advances in drug development in the last few years is to reduce the "translational risk", i.e. The risk that animal models and other disease models are not predictive of human outcomes. A recent study suggests that we have actually started to make some improvements in this area which is a huge step in lowering drug costs and getting more new medicines

[0] https://www.nature.com/articles/nrd3078

Re: Why Drugs That Work in Mice Don't Work in Humans

#70
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm interested in how compounds are chosen for medical research. Do you just start with a wide range of compounds which you are able to make and fire them at a range of different potential medical issues? That seems staggeringly unlikely to find something useful. I know some drugs are extracted by isolating a compound from a traditional remedy. That obviously makes sense.

This is a huge field of research and development, with a number of different approaches. Almost always, though, you are starting with a particular medical problem in mind, so the first step is to develop some kind of assay for detecting compounds which might be useful in treating it. Ideally, this would be a simple biochemical reaction, but it might be something involving cell culture. For example, if you wanted to f…

Thanks, that was exactly the answer I was looking for but couldn't quite figure out how to formulate the question so that Google would provide a useful answer!
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