France’s new high-speed trains • Hacker News Board

Re: France’s new high-speed trains

#151

Post by kmlx » Thu, Feb 28, 2019, 11:07 AM UTC

mcv wrote: post #117

titanix2 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it's a bit more expensive but the trains themselves are way more confortable, most of the time on schedule and drive at full operational speed all the time because they rails are made for it. With TGV on the other hand you have a few sections which are standard rails and thus you the train drive at a normal (low) speed...

More comfortable than the TGV? The train I'm most familiar with is the Thalys, the high-speed train from Amsterdam to Paris, and I'm not sure if it's more comfortable than other TGVs, but it's always a joy to travel in. I recently went to London in the Eurostar, and they'd managed to make the train experience feel like a plane. Very disappointing.

Having recently used both the TGV and the Tokaido Shinkansen, I'd say the Hikari line is much more comfortable than any of the TGV trains.

Regarding the Eurostar, it works like that because the UK is not in Schengen. As such, border control needs to happen. Not to mention the potential issues with terrorism. And the Eurostar is net inferior to any of the Shinkansen trains.

Re: France’s new high-speed trains

#152

Post by adrianN » Thu, Feb 28, 2019, 11:10 AM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #59

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's really not a fair reflection. Privatisation came after nearly 20 years of Tory under investment and far from adequate under several administrations previously. It was, by the time of Major, a very predictable and well-worn trope. What better way to "prove" your lawn needs a private mowing service than barely mowing the lawn for a decade or two? It's quite easy to see why rolling stock was far beyond expected l…

Rail subsidies are highly regressive. The rail network primarily connects cities to cities via relatively affluent suburbs. If you live on a council estate and work in a factory, it's highly unlikely that you have the option of commuting by rail. Very few workers with below-average incomes have the need to travel from Manchester to London for a meeting. Rail travel is inherently more expensive than other modes and al…

Because the alternative to rail is cars. Cars don't scale to the level needed in cities. They also pollute a lot and kill a lot of people in accidents. Everybody benefits from fewer cars on the road.

Re: France’s new high-speed trains

#153

Post by ReptileMan » Thu, Feb 28, 2019, 11:10 AM UTC

titanix2 wrote: post #116

acchow wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hong Kong's is profitable mostly because it is run as a real estate company. They acquire land before adding a metro station and then lease/sell the valuable land after adding the station. Why don't other cities do this?

Because it's not East-Asia. It works in HK, Japan, Taiwan or others countries because a train station increase value of the surroundings but in France a train station is a place you want to avoid , especially at night. In any city of a respectable size this is where you have you have a lot of beggars, thieves etc. trying to extorts you cigarettes and money. It is even worse for women that get everything of that plus…

I don't know. Securing a city is not that hard. East Asia is not some crime free utopia. So it boils down to lack of political will.

Re: France’s new high-speed trains

#154

Post by icebraining » Thu, Feb 28, 2019, 11:10 AM UTC

mcv wrote: post #137

C1sc0cat wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leases that short must make getting a mortgage hard.

When the lease is about to run out, it means you need to reserve money for that, meaning the price of the house will be lower. I think you can still use the mortgage to pay for that lease. So overall it doesn't make much difference, it's just an extra thing to pay attention to, or you'll end up with unexpected costs.

If the lease is set to expire in twenty years, can you know in advance how much it will cost to renew, so that you can include it in the mortgage?

If so, then it doesn't really seem to help the city to capture the gains that may have accrued over those years. If not, what happens if the lease now costs much more and you can't afford it? Do you get kicked out of the house?

Re: France’s new high-speed trains

#155

Post by dingaling » Thu, Feb 28, 2019, 11:10 AM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #17

mc32 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I were French and our rolling stock were competitive, I’d be upset if the government gave a leg up to the competition given the strong unions and jobs the TGV provides. It may save a buck or two but it also is a blow against local producers.

EU competition rules prohibit preferential treatment of domestic businesses in state procurement - any public contract worth more than €5.5m must be open to fair competition from firms in all EU member states. Alongside the State Aid rules, this is one of the most important principles in maintaining the fair operation of the Single Market and preventing internal protectionism. https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/se…

> and preventing internal protectionism

Which is the key phrase. The EU is perfectly fine with protectionism so long as it is non-EU countries who are being excluded. For example, the cap of foreign ownership of EU airlines at 49% has no basis other than protecting local companies.

Re: France’s new high-speed trains

#156

Post by pjc50 » Thu, Feb 28, 2019, 11:14 AM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #59

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's really not a fair reflection. Privatisation came after nearly 20 years of Tory under investment and far from adequate under several administrations previously. It was, by the time of Major, a very predictable and well-worn trope. What better way to "prove" your lawn needs a private mowing service than barely mowing the lawn for a decade or two? It's quite easy to see why rolling stock was far beyond expected l…

Rail subsidies are highly regressive. The rail network primarily connects cities to cities via relatively affluent suburbs. If you live on a council estate and work in a factory, it's highly unlikely that you have the option of commuting by rail. Very few workers with below-average incomes have the need to travel from Manchester to London for a meeting. Rail travel is inherently more expensive than other modes and al…

Rail is high-volume, far more so than achievable by bus, and the modal users are the middle class and commuters. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...

Really this is a "yes and" situation. We should also have decent low-cost buses, which in the UK are only available in London, Edinburgh and a few other places.

Re: France’s new high-speed trains

#157

Post by kmlx » Thu, Feb 28, 2019, 11:14 AM UTC

speedplane wrote: post #86

supernova87a wrote: post #31

SNCF is fiddling with the wrong things. It doesn't need to separate train operations from rail track network maintenance. It doesn't need to open up the network to competition. What it needs to do is cut the number of excessive public sector workers, reduce costs, and stop running the business like a political arm of the government. I can bet that the reason they think they need to do all these things is that cost pr…

> Public rail is a money-losing venture, ... But it's important to have. Just how much money-losing depends on the political environment and skill of the management. Arguably, all public rail should lose money. Quality transportation is a huge economic driver of regional economies. If a rail service is making money, it likely means governments are underinvesting in their own economies.

> TOKYO -- East and West Japan Railway have both forecast record profits for the fiscal year ending March 2018, anticipating more bullet train passengers and higher income from real estate and other noncore operations. > West Japan Railway said Friday it expects a group net profit of 109 billion yen ($978 million) for the fiscal year through March 2018, up 19% on the year.

Full article: https://asia.nikkei.com/Editor-s-Picks/Japan-Update/JR-East-...

JR East annual report: https://www.jreast.co.jp/e/investor/ar/2018/pdf/ar_2018-all....

Re: France’s new high-speed trains

#158

Post by adrianN » Thu, Feb 28, 2019, 11:14 AM UTC

titanix2 wrote: post #116

acchow wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hong Kong's is profitable mostly because it is run as a real estate company. They acquire land before adding a metro station and then lease/sell the valuable land after adding the station. Why don't other cities do this?

Because it's not East-Asia. It works in HK, Japan, Taiwan or others countries because a train station increase value of the surroundings but in France a train station is a place you want to avoid , especially at night. In any city of a respectable size this is where you have you have a lot of beggars, thieves etc. trying to extorts you cigarettes and money. It is even worse for women that get everything of that plus…

That seems to be a problem that can be fixed with some security guards.

Re: France’s new high-speed trains

#159

Post by jillesvangurp » Thu, Feb 28, 2019, 11:16 AM UTC

supernova87a wrote: post #31

SNCF is fiddling with the wrong things. It doesn't need to separate train operations from rail track network maintenance. It doesn't need to open up the network to competition. What it needs to do is cut the number of excessive public sector workers, reduce costs, and stop running the business like a political arm of the government. I can bet that the reason they think they need to do all these things is that cost pr…

Public rail is only a money losing venture if you consider that ticket sales is the only benefit it provides and that those need to fully cover the exploitation. If that were the case, rip out the subways in any US city, shut down the airports, break up the highways (who pays for those?), etc. Most of that kind of infrastructure does not happen without tax payer money.

The reality is that the economic side effects of connecting cities with each other such that people can travel easily between them facilitates a lot of business to happen. Having access to infrastructure such as working internet, good housing and health care, public transport, etc. are per-requisites for running any successful business.

In France, the high speed rail network which has been there for decades now has meant that a lot of business trips to major French cities can be done in a single business day without requiring lots of planes to fly. That makes a lot of difference for cities that are far from Paris. Also it means that getting to Paris from anywhere in France is typically easy and straightforward.

Re: France’s new high-speed trains

#160

Post by icebraining » Thu, Feb 28, 2019, 11:17 AM UTC

jnty wrote: post #147

icebraining wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming the railway itself is public and shared, as in this case, how is rail a natural monopoly?

A key reason is that off-peak services are often subsidised by on-peak services, so to economically provide a good all-day service the whole thing needs to be provided by the same operator.

No reason to require a single operator, you just need a shared "pot" to move money around. On-peak trains pay into the pot, off-peak trains get money from it.