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Taxing Uber and Lyft rides is L.A's latest plan to free up congested roads

latimes.com

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Re: Taxing Uber and Lyft rides is L.A's latest plan to free up congested roads

#131

Post by gamblor956 »

greeneggs wrote: post #13

> Metro’s rough estimates suggest a 20-cent fee on each trip could bring in $401 million over a decade, while a $2.75 fee could raise $5.5 billion. Hmm, $401 million / 20 cents * $2.75 = $5.51 billion. Is there some "law" that public transportation officials never account for the fact that increased fares or taxes will reduce demand? Maybe most people don't care, but I find it hard to take seriously anyone who doesn'…

In this case, reduced demand is desirable because Uber and Lyft drivers are a large part of the renewed traffic problems in LA.

Re: Taxing Uber and Lyft rides is L.A's latest plan to free up congested roads

#132

Post by crummy »

updateYourMind wrote: post #43
nickles wrote: post #3

> Uber and Lyft “are using public roads, and the profit is going to their companies,” Phil Washington, Metro’s chief executive, said at a recent meeting. Public roads are supposed to be paid for through fuel taxes, which every Uber and Lyft driver pays. California has gasoline taxes of: * 55.22c per gallon (second only to Pennsylvania) * 18.4c per gallon (federal) * 2.25% sales tax Additionally, taxing only rideshari…

This is a very bad solution, especially as share rides decrease the number of cars when people use uber pool

Not sure on the accuracy of this report but there are some indications that Uber, etc increase the number of cars on the road: https://www.businessinsider.com.au/uber-lyft-creating-traffi...

I think the implication is that people with cars keep using them and people without cars use Uber instead of alternative transport.

Re: Taxing Uber and Lyft rides is L.A's latest plan to free up congested roads

#133

Post by gamblor956 »

paulgb wrote: post #103
objektif wrote: post #85

NYC is doing this as well and it makes no sense to me. What is congestion? Is it “people who own cars getting stuck in traffic”? To me it seems like all this benefits is wealthy people who want to drive comfortably to/around their neighborhood.

Not only that, if you look at plates, a good portion of the cars around Manhattan besides taxis and hire cars (T-plates) have out-of-state plates. Why should residents pay hefty city/state taxes AND pay more to use the roads (through the new Uber/Lyft tax) so that there is less congestion for people who live out of state and drive in? What behavior is the city trying to incentivize?

Congestion pricing is paid at the point of entry, so the non local cars also pay the fee. In fact, it's easier to collect from them.

Re: Taxing Uber and Lyft rides is L.A's latest plan to free up congested roads

#134

Post by javagram »

stale2002 wrote: post #60
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many Uber/Lyft/taxis cars are fuel sipping Toyota Priuses. Fuel taxes break down as fuel economies reach a certain point. Yes, it is not just Uber drivers using Priuses, but it is a substantial problem that has increased road usage without the same corresponding increases in fuel tax revenues. Of course electric presents even bigger problems that many states now have a surcharge on them during registration. It is obv…

Efficient cars cost the city less money. This is because efficient cars are usually smaller, and cause much less damage to the roads. It is a good thing for society that they are using Priuses. It makes road maintenance cheaper. Why should we be trying to lose money, by discouraging behavior that helps the city out? IE, fuel efficient, smaller cars.

Hybrid cars like the Prius actually weigh more because of the weight of the batteries. Tesla cars other than the roadster are also huge and heavy.

Re: Taxing Uber and Lyft rides is L.A's latest plan to free up congested roads

#135

Post by CorvusCrypto »

Hmm I often wonder why California doesn't implement a congestion tax. In Stockholm you need to pay around 4$ if you want to drive on the highway during certain hours into and out of the city.

I can't say if it works to reduce congestion but it does even the field and it certainly made me want to not drive there.

Re: Taxing Uber and Lyft rides is L.A's latest plan to free up congested roads

#136

Post by mikeash »

reaperducer wrote: post #110
SilasX wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's misleading -- yes, in the aggregate, gas taxes cover only part of the expenses, but that's not because of personal cars . Damage on the roads -- and thus maintenance costs -- scales with the 4th power of weight per axle. So the damage is virtually all from large trucks, with sedans and SUVs as a rounding error. If you were to apportion out the maintenance cost due to personal cars, they are overpaying.

So the damage is virtually all from large trucks, with sedans and SUVs as a rounding error. Which is why the California tax on gasoline is 48.7¢/gallon and the California tax on diesel fuel is 67¢/gallon.[1] Federal tax on gasoline is 18.4¢/gallon, and diesel fuel is 24.4¢/gallon.[2] I'm not defending the trucking industry. I think more stuff should go by train instead. But truck fuel is taxed more heavily than car f…

It’s taxed slightly more heavily. But trucks cause literally thousands of times more damage than cars.

Re: Taxing Uber and Lyft rides is L.A's latest plan to free up congested roads

#137

Post by mattnewton »

gamblor956 wrote: post #133
paulgb wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that, if you look at plates, a good portion of the cars around Manhattan besides taxis and hire cars (T-plates) have out-of-state plates. Why should residents pay hefty city/state taxes AND pay more to use the roads (through the new Uber/Lyft tax) so that there is less congestion for people who live out of state and drive in? What behavior is the city trying to incentivize?

Congestion pricing is paid at the point of entry, so the non local cars also pay the fee. In fact, it's easier to collect from them.

But in the article LA residents pay increased Uber and Lyft fares. If this policy were in NYC, the gp is suggesting NYC residents get hit with an additional fine that people who drive from out of state would not.

Re: Taxing Uber and Lyft rides is L.A's latest plan to free up congested roads

#138

Post by jacobolus »

btilly wrote: post #104
shereadsthenews wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're talking about California. There are no major cities in California in possession of snow plows and salt trucks. A garbage truck goes down the street once per week, yes. The overwhelming majority of traffic on most city streets is cars and light trucks. The main cause of damage to most city streets is the mere passage of time, and rain.

We are talking about California. What rain? :-P

Thankfully CA is now finally pretty well drought free, after getting pretty decent rain the past couple months. https://www.sacbee.com/latest-news/article226462260.html

Drought map https://droughtmonitor.unl.edu/CurrentMap/StateDroughtMonito...

Reservoirs are doing well http://cdec.water.ca.gov/reportapp/javareports?name=rescond....

Of course, this is an El Niño year, so we’ll see whether we return to severe drought in the coming years.

Re: Taxing Uber and Lyft rides is L.A's latest plan to free up congested roads

#139

Post by paulgb »

gamblor956 wrote: post #133
paulgb wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that, if you look at plates, a good portion of the cars around Manhattan besides taxis and hire cars (T-plates) have out-of-state plates. Why should residents pay hefty city/state taxes AND pay more to use the roads (through the new Uber/Lyft tax) so that there is less congestion for people who live out of state and drive in? What behavior is the city trying to incentivize?

Congestion pricing is paid at the point of entry, so the non local cars also pay the fee. In fact, it's easier to collect from them.

I’m not talking about proposed congestion pricing (which hasn’t passed in NYC yet AFAIK), I’m talking about a recent fee that only applies to Uber/Lyft-type rides.

Re: Taxing Uber and Lyft rides is L.A's latest plan to free up congested roads

#140

Post by seanmcdirmid »

baddox wrote: post #116
2dollars27cents wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As others have mentioned, taxing efficient cars doesn't seem to make much sense. Maybe tax actual miles traveled instead? That would solve the problem of increasing efficiency and also decrease the value of loitering and cruising in-between pick-ups.

If you want usage fees to be proportionate, I think you'd need to tax according to the maintenance costs caused by the vehicle per mile (eighteen wheelers cause vastly more road wear than cars). That's really all you need, except perhaps for some fixed cost per mile for the size of the vehicle, to tax congestion.

You’d also want to discourage congestion with use taxes, as another commons tragedy.
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