Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Taxing Uber and Lyft rides is L.A's latest plan to free up congested roads

latimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 327 posts

Re: Taxing Uber and Lyft rides is L.A's latest plan to free up congested roads

#11

Post by burlesona »

dmitrygr wrote: post #4
burlesona wrote: post #2

This doesn’t fundamentally change the supply and demand problem in LA, which is a city built entirely for cars and nowhere near the road capacity for everyone to be able to make all the car trips they would like to. For cities that want people to be able to get around AND for the roads to be relatively uncontested, the only reasonable solution is to lower demand by raising the cost of driving - ie. significant conges…

> public will being the primary > impediment to progress. What an extremely arrogant statement. If the public will does not agree with your world view, perhaps the latter needs adjustment, and not the former, like you imply?

I’m not saying public will is currently “wrong,” I’m saying we shouldn’t kid ourselves about why we’re in the mess we’re in.

Most of American city-dwellers want to “have their cake and eat it too,” that is, they want to live in a major metro AND be able to easily drive and park everywhere they want to go.

Those two things (major population and easy driving) are mutually exclusive, because car oriented development doesn’t scale beyond rural / suburban size very well.

But so far I haven’t seen any public leaders or communities acknowledge that and start working on alternatives. Instead they play games like blaming Uber and Lyft and pretending that an extra tax on them will make any real difference, when in reality it’s political theater.

Re: Taxing Uber and Lyft rides is L.A's latest plan to free up congested roads

#12

Post by seanmcdirmid »

modeless wrote: post #9
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many Uber/Lyft/taxis cars are fuel sipping Toyota Priuses. Fuel taxes break down as fuel economies reach a certain point. Yes, it is not just Uber drivers using Priuses, but it is a substantial problem that has increased road usage without the same corresponding increases in fuel tax revenues. Of course electric presents even bigger problems that many states now have a surcharge on them during registration. It is obv…

If efficient cars are a problem, tax efficient cars, not Uber. But given CA's environmental goals, this would be counterproductive.

Yes, I mentioned that is already beginning to happen.

> But given CA's environmental goals, this would be counterproductive.

That is irrelevant, we are reaching a point where taxation on road miles driven vs. fueled used becomes unavoidable. What will wind up happening is that efficient and clean energy vehicles will still need to be taxed to account for usage, while less efficient vehicles will be taxed even more (to discourage use).

Re: Taxing Uber and Lyft rides is L.A's latest plan to free up congested roads

#13

Post by greeneggs »

> Metro’s rough estimates suggest a 20-cent fee on each trip could bring in $401 million over a decade, while a $2.75 fee could raise $5.5 billion.

Hmm, $401 million / 20 cents * $2.75 = $5.51 billion.

Is there some "law" that public transportation officials never account for the fact that increased fares or taxes will reduce demand?

Maybe most people don't care, but I find it hard to take seriously anyone who doesn't believe in price elasticity of demand. Perhaps they are ignorant of economics, or perhaps they are so well off that that $2.75 isn't worth counting. Either way…

Re: Taxing Uber and Lyft rides is L.A's latest plan to free up congested roads

#14

Post by ars »

nickles wrote: post #3

> Uber and Lyft “are using public roads, and the profit is going to their companies,” Phil Washington, Metro’s chief executive, said at a recent meeting. Public roads are supposed to be paid for through fuel taxes, which every Uber and Lyft driver pays. California has gasoline taxes of: * 55.22c per gallon (second only to Pennsylvania) * 18.4c per gallon (federal) * 2.25% sales tax Additionally, taxing only rideshari…

They really said that? Your local pizza place also uses public roads, and they get the profit.

What kind of stupid.........sigh.

The point of having public roads is that it benefits the city by increasing economic output.

Did he forget that there are PEOPLE in those Uber and Lyft cars? Those same people he is supposed to serve? Or does he think the cars are driving around for no purpose making profit the whole time?

Re: Taxing Uber and Lyft rides is L.A's latest plan to free up congested roads

#15

Post by bsder »

modeless wrote: post #9
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many Uber/Lyft/taxis cars are fuel sipping Toyota Priuses. Fuel taxes break down as fuel economies reach a certain point. Yes, it is not just Uber drivers using Priuses, but it is a substantial problem that has increased road usage without the same corresponding increases in fuel tax revenues. Of course electric presents even bigger problems that many states now have a surcharge on them during registration. It is obv…

If efficient cars are a problem, tax efficient cars, not Uber. But given CA's environmental goals, this would be counterproductive.

Efficient cars aren't the problem.

The problem is that Uber/Lyft drivers "cruise" when the demand is slack rather than park.

So, for certain areas and times (generally about a hour before when that area is about to go from slack to busy), your street becomes a never-ending stream of ridesharing cars--generally doing stupid traffic maneuvers when they finally get summoned.

Re: Taxing Uber and Lyft rides is L.A's latest plan to free up congested roads

#16

Post by burlesona »

ars wrote: post #8
burlesona wrote: post #2

This doesn’t fundamentally change the supply and demand problem in LA, which is a city built entirely for cars and nowhere near the road capacity for everyone to be able to make all the car trips they would like to. For cities that want people to be able to get around AND for the roads to be relatively uncontested, the only reasonable solution is to lower demand by raising the cost of driving - ie. significant conges…

> is to lower demand by raising the cost of driving - ie. significant congestion pricing (tolls) across the metro All that does is increase the cost of living. Either people need to drive or they don't. People don't drive just for the fun of it anymore. And if you succeed and do manage to reduce travel you also managed to reduce economic activity. If you goal is to get people to switch, then you have to do it on the…

Which is why I included the second part of my statement, which you did not quote: we would need to use the proceeds to dramatically increase the quality and quantity of alternatives to driving so that people had a realistic choice.

I totally agree with you that people are driving mostly because they have to, not for fun. However, retrofitting car-oriented development to be viable for non-car users is exceptionally difficult.

I can’t imagine any way of accomplishing that, unless we begin by acknowledging that cars won’t scale up any farther and that we have to redirect our efforts into things that will.

Re: Taxing Uber and Lyft rides is L.A's latest plan to free up congested roads

#17

Post by mertd »

dmitrygr wrote: post #4
burlesona wrote: post #2

This doesn’t fundamentally change the supply and demand problem in LA, which is a city built entirely for cars and nowhere near the road capacity for everyone to be able to make all the car trips they would like to. For cities that want people to be able to get around AND for the roads to be relatively uncontested, the only reasonable solution is to lower demand by raising the cost of driving - ie. significant conges…

> public will being the primary > impediment to progress. What an extremely arrogant statement. If the public will does not agree with your world view, perhaps the latter needs adjustment, and not the former, like you imply?

Public will used to hold some very shocking positions in he past.

Re: Taxing Uber and Lyft rides is L.A's latest plan to free up congested roads

#18

Post by bsder »

dmitrygr wrote: post #4
burlesona wrote: post #2

This doesn’t fundamentally change the supply and demand problem in LA, which is a city built entirely for cars and nowhere near the road capacity for everyone to be able to make all the car trips they would like to. For cities that want people to be able to get around AND for the roads to be relatively uncontested, the only reasonable solution is to lower demand by raising the cost of driving - ie. significant conges…

> public will being the primary > impediment to progress. What an extremely arrogant statement. If the public will does not agree with your world view, perhaps the latter needs adjustment, and not the former, like you imply?

Popularity does not imply correctness.

Re: Taxing Uber and Lyft rides is L.A's latest plan to free up congested roads

#19

Post by dragonwriter »

nickles wrote: post #3

> Uber and Lyft “are using public roads, and the profit is going to their companies,” Phil Washington, Metro’s chief executive, said at a recent meeting. Public roads are supposed to be paid for through fuel taxes, which every Uber and Lyft driver pays. California has gasoline taxes of: * 55.22c per gallon (second only to Pennsylvania) * 18.4c per gallon (federal) * 2.25% sales tax Additionally, taxing only rideshari…

> Public roads are supposed to be paid for through fuel taxes,

No, they aren't, at least in California; fuel excise taxes (and diesel, but not gasoline, sales tax) are a part of road funding, but other sources, including general revenue (largely, sales taxes and personal and corporate income tax), are used.

EDIT: Not that taxing ride-sharing is likely to reduce congestion. It plausibly could increase it, if it induces residents of mostly walkable communities (which, sure, LA has fewer of than it should) who might otherwise rely on ride-sharing for occasional car needs to instead keep a personal vehicle, which then tends to encourage additional, less-necessary driving.

Re: Taxing Uber and Lyft rides is L.A's latest plan to free up congested roads

#20

Post by jayd16 »

burlesona wrote: post #2

This doesn’t fundamentally change the supply and demand problem in LA, which is a city built entirely for cars and nowhere near the road capacity for everyone to be able to make all the car trips they would like to. For cities that want people to be able to get around AND for the roads to be relatively uncontested, the only reasonable solution is to lower demand by raising the cost of driving - ie. significant conges…

>the only reasonable solution is to lower demand by raising the cost of driving

You can also reduce the need to travel by increasing density, which LA is attempting in certain respects.

Post reply on HN