Live data from Hacker News

Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

nytimes.com

51–60 of 149 posts

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#51
post #49
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually not obvious that a testing-based teacher measurement regime would be better than the seniority system. The seniority system does lock in mediocre teachers, but it has minimal knock-on effects to the actual curriculum. Test-based measurement has already made some curricula toxic to students, and those test results have minimal impact to the teachers themselves. How much worse would it be if the teach-to-…

I'm guessing less worse than the incentive to do the minimum amount possible knowing you're going to get a pay raise regardless. We can change the test if it's not measuring the right thing (we should do that anyway regardless of it's use for teacher measurement). Test scores are what parents, universities, etc. measure the performance of children by, we shouldn't have a double standard of having one metric for child…

Imo, universities measuring applicants mainly by test scores is a bad thing, done only because they can't find a better way to do it, but I'd hardly want to subordinate all of education to that. K-12 education should teach kids useful stuff, meta-learning habits, civic information, attempt to inspire them, etc., not solely aim to maximize their SAT scores. To the extent I found K-12 education useful at all, it was only the parts that weren't narrowly aiming at maximizing my test scores, so it'd be a shame to declare those irrelevant and ditch them.

Plus, universities do take some other things into account. I got significant credit on my university applications for an open-source project I worked on in high school, and a website I maintained (in the late 90s websites weren't exactly rare, but it wasn't yet to the "everyone has a blog" level of pervasiveness). Will a teacher who successfully inspires kids to do that sort of extracurricular stuff get credit in these evaluation schemes?

Alternatively, if you consider preparing kids for college to be the sole purpose of K-12 education, why not just measure it directly? For 2nd-grade teachers it would be difficult to measure due to the large time lag, but it'd be possible for high-school teachers. Instead of the state inventing its own tests, just use the % of students who go on to college as the metric, and then do some statistical analysis over a 5-year window to estimate the effect a particular teacher had on that rate. There are a lot of variables and each student is influenced by many teachers, but over a window you can make an estimate of whether a particular teacher had any influence (positive or negative) on college-admission rates, compared to a hypothetical average teacher of the same subject and of a hypothetically equivalent set of students (according to whatever demographic/etc. variables). A teacher version of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_over_replacement_player, basically.

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#52
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing less worse than the incentive to do the minimum amount possible knowing you're going to get a pay raise regardless. We can change the test if it's not measuring the right thing (we should do that anyway regardless of it's use for teacher measurement). Test scores are what parents, universities, etc. measure the performance of children by, we shouldn't have a double standard of having one metric for child…

Imo, universities measuring applicants mainly by test scores is a bad thing, done only because they can't find a better way to do it, but I'd hardly want to subordinate all of education to that. K-12 education should teach kids useful stuff, meta-learning habits, civic information, attempt to inspire them, etc., not solely aim to maximize their SAT scores. To the extent I found K-12 education useful at all, it was on…

> K-12 education should teach kids useful stuff, meta-learning habits, civic information, attempt to inspire them, etc., not solely aim to maximize their SAT scores

I agree AND I'm willing to pay for that to happen.

However, I'm not willing to pay for teachers who don't teach that stuff. Are you?

So, how do you propose determining whether we're getting what we're paying for?

Note - if your answer is "trust us", my response is "not with my money".

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#53
post #44

My favorite recent quote: We all know that successful teaching beyond the infant class involves (a) wide and detailed knowledge of a difficult subject, (b) an enthusiasm for the subject which communicates itself to the class, and (c) a few simple tricks of the trade, learnt by anyone from a single volume and from about three weeks of experience. The art of the Educationalizer is to expand (c) into a mass of pretentio…

So if a class if students decides to throw the exam they can get the teacher fired? Sort of a middle school cousin of jury nullification.

I think there should be some check on this, but if a class decides to throw the exam in order to screw the teacher, the teacher probably sucks.

Also, if each students score is part of their record, there is an incentive to not throw the test even if the teacher is hated.

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#54
post #50

This is all just fantasy sports of course, but here's my plan. I would require new teachers to work as apprentices for quite some time (several years) and not pay them very much during this period. After that, if they accede to full status, I would pay them a great deal more. The reasons for this structure: (1) to weed out people who aren't intrinsically motivated by working with children, i.e. the ones who probably…

Why don't pay them decently to start with, pay them better if they deserve it, and FIRE THEM if they don't?

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#55
If we really cared, we could increase the quality of teaching beyond all recognition. It wouldn't be remotely difficult.

Massively increase pay for teachers, tripling or quadrupling pay at every level. Mandate a specific postgraduate qualification and a statutory minimum of continuing professional development. Recruit only the best and the brightest, specifically seeking out graduates from the best universities. Advertise teaching as a career on prime-time television. Put Obama on The Daily Show and Oprah to talk about the importance of teaching. In short, a concerted effort to make teaching every bit as prestigious as law or medicine. After a few years, require every teacher in the country to reapply for their own job. Relative to the Military or Social Security budgets, the cost would barely even register on the balance sheet.

We could quite easily live in a world where Asian parents push their kids into teaching, where Yale and Harvard vie to be the best school of education, where teaching is seen as a first choice rather than a last resort.

We don't, because we don't really care. We pretend that education matters, but really it's one of those things that you're supposed to care about but most people don't, like the environment or human rights. We don't care whether college students learn anything, only that they get a suitably prestigious certificate. We don't care whether high school graduates can meaningfully participate in society, only that they can pass the standardised tests, whatever they might be.

It is practically self-evident that we don't care about teaching. We all know that the current system is failing, but we aren't prepared to do the obvious things that would actually rescue it. For as long as we see education in the abstract as high status but teaching in practice as low status, we are doomed to watch our school system circle the drain.

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#56
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always in favor of better standardized tests -- who isn't? -- but one handy thing about value-added modeling is that if you use the same flawed tests, you should get similar outcomes: if a kid is in the 10th percentile of his class when he starts his sophomore year and the 20th when he ends, as measured by similar tests, then he's progressed.

Objection. The kid may have improved specifically in his ability to score well on a specific standardized test, and in no other way . And meanwhile, the process that delivered that superficial improvement could have immeasurably harmed other students who might have otherwise genuinely excelled.

Is there a study that shows that scoring well on standardized tests does NOT reflect real learning? Perhaps there is, but... There is a lot rhetoric to the effect that "scoring well on tests just means you are good at taking tests", but (1) there is nothing wrong with getting good at taking tests, and (2) are we sure?

Also, the process MAY or MAY not have harmed other students -- there is no reason to believe it would, that I can tell -- again, please respond if there is.

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#57

If we really cared, we could increase the quality of teaching beyond all recognition. It wouldn't be remotely difficult. Massively increase pay for teachers, tripling or quadrupling pay at every level. Mandate a specific postgraduate qualification and a statutory minimum of continuing professional development. Recruit only the best and the brightest, specifically seeking out graduates from the best universities. Adve…

We don't revolutionize teaching because TENURE AND SENIORITY RULES ARE LOCKED DOWN BY THE UNIONS.

Want to revolutionize teaching (and save some money)? Break the unions and fire the worst 10% of the teaching staff. Then do it again next year.

(Edit: we really DO care about teaching, and spend enormous amounts of tax payers dollars and collective worry on it.)

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#58
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always in favor of better standardized tests -- who isn't? -- but one handy thing about value-added modeling is that if you use the same flawed tests, you should get similar outcomes: if a kid is in the 10th percentile of his class when he starts his sophomore year and the 20th when he ends, as measured by similar tests, then he's progressed.

Objection. The kid may have improved specifically in his ability to score well on a specific standardized test, and in no other way . And meanwhile, the process that delivered that superficial improvement could have immeasurably harmed other students who might have otherwise genuinely excelled.

If your point is that standardized tests have problems, then I agree. But I don't see any other way of gathering some kind of data, and, as far as I know, no proponents of using standardized tests -- including Gates -- want to use them solely to evaluate teachers.

But if you had a kid, and you had two teachers, both of whom regularly got classes in the 50th percentile, and one teacher regularly had kids leave in the 40th percentile, the other in the 60th, which would you want? In fact, L.A. is already now in effect conducting the experiment: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-teachers-value-20100... and parents are responding accordingly -- for good reason.

Your concerns are valid, but they are mostly misguided if the alternative to them is "doing what we're doing now." See here: http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2010/08... for more; "We cannot simultaneously claim, however, that teachers are vitally important for the future of our children and also that their effectiveness should not be measured." Also see the list of education-related articles I compiled here: http://jseliger.com/2009/11/12/susan-engel-doesnt-get

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#59
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might sound trite, but I think the solution would be to couple standardized testing with performance based pay. Unlike code, it's hard to aim for solely short-term gains. As long as teachers aren't cheating, I can't imagine many ways to teach students that aren't inherently beneficial to the student. Teaching better study habits, etc might not be directly related to their material, but it still helps the student…

In many cases, you will get better short-term results by drilling recipes or factoids than pursuing deep understanding, though the latter is far more valuable in the long run (and in early schooling, long is the only run that matters). There's too much trivia-memorizing in schools as it is.

I'm OK with paying a drill sergeant more than someone who sits around the teacher's lounge eating donuts all day.

I'm not saying this approach is a panacea to all of education's problems, I'm just saying this is a step in the right direction. I think the question this approach answers is the disconnect between effort and reward in education.

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#60

If we really cared, we could increase the quality of teaching beyond all recognition. It wouldn't be remotely difficult. Massively increase pay for teachers, tripling or quadrupling pay at every level. Mandate a specific postgraduate qualification and a statutory minimum of continuing professional development. Recruit only the best and the brightest, specifically seeking out graduates from the best universities. Adve…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN