Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority • Hacker News Board

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#21

Post by zootar » Sat, Nov 20, 2010, 10:31 PM UTC

In addition to the difficulty of rating teachers in a way that can be fairly coupled to pay, the fraction of teachers able to substantially increase their performance might be small. Identifying specific sources of confusion, inventing ways of explaining things to alleviate confusion, etc are non-trivial challenges.

What I think might be more effective than attempting to pay teachers for their teaching performance is paying teachers to produce very high-quality teaching material that other teachers can easily use themselves: detailed lesson plans, visual aids, interesting labs, textbooks, maybe even tables of sources of confusion and how to alleviate them.

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#22

Post by HaloZero » Sat, Nov 20, 2010, 10:35 PM UTC

yp90 wrote: post #16

Mahh wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The families of many of those students you refer to are just as shattered as their neighborhoods and that may be what makes it easy for them to be susceptible to influence from the neighborhoods. They wouldn't particularly care if boarding schools could help their kids or not, even if they could have access to boarding schools. Following this thought, the importance of education(what life would be as compared to with…

"The families of many of those students you refer to are just as shattered as their neighborhoods and that may be what makes it easy for them to be susceptible to influence from the neighborhoods." I find the stereotypes here frankly appalling. Have you guys even lived in the ghetto, or even taught in one? Inner city students are just as motivated and understand the importance of education as any other kid living in…

Have you? My school was by no means "inner city" but I did grow up in a very low-income area.

The fact of the matter is that the majority of students did not care as much. There was that group of students who I basically knew from elementary school to high school, the core group of students who really put in an effort and tried harder.

Bad system and bad students are not mutually exclusive. There was definitely students who I know tried but did not do well because they required more help and couldn't get it.

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#23

Post by SkyMarshal » Sat, Nov 20, 2010, 10:35 PM UTC

alphaoverlord wrote: post #10

wheaties wrote: post #3

This is easy to say but hard to do. "Based on excellence" is the mantra I've heard from software development circles for years and yet... 1. How many of us have lost productivity because some other developer ran rough-shod through code caring not for maintainability, readability, or even extensibility? Which one was praised and which one rewarded? Doesn't apply to teachers? Ever have a dud who couldn't do simple math…

This might sound trite, but I think the solution would be to couple standardized testing with performance based pay. Unlike code, it's hard to aim for solely short-term gains. As long as teachers aren't cheating, I can't imagine many ways to teach students that aren't inherently beneficial to the student. Teaching better study habits, etc might not be directly related to their material, but it still helps the student…

>I think we can both agree such testing does measure a worthwhile metric.

I don't know about that. I've come across plenty of critiques of standardized tests, especially back during the debate over Bush's 'No Child Left Behind' initiative.

That kind of 'education' may produce good little worker drones, but I'm not sure it's something we want to base the entire education system of the Republic on.

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#24

Post by enjo » Sat, Nov 20, 2010, 10:36 PM UTC

_delirium wrote: post #19

WalterBright wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no bureaucratic rule that can be devised that can separate good teachers from bad ones. Every such rule can and will be gamed. It's like the difference between art and porn - the difference is obvious by inspection, but impossible to codify. With a free market school system, people will know who the good teachers are and will pay for them (supply and demand). With a government school system, this simply will…

Unless the teachers are going to be individually contracted by parents, don't private-sector schools have the same evaluation problem? They still have to separate good and bad teachers via some sort of process, probably overseen by management (aka bureaucracy). The similarity of the agency problems is one reason corporations internally often look so much like governments.

And fundamentally why the idea that private enterprise is always more efficient is a fundamentally flawed premise.

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#25

Post by SkyMarshal » Sat, Nov 20, 2010, 10:41 PM UTC

gf44 wrote: post #12

chipsy wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the most needy inner city kids, I think boarding schools might be appropriate even at an early age. Their home environment and neighborhood is so shattered that what they need most is a stable day-to-day existence shielded from drugs, gangs, and criminal behavior. If they don't get that, by the teen years, they're stuck in feudalistic "ghetto thinking," start getting into increasingly serious trouble, and just ar…

"Their home environment and neighborhood is so shattered that what they need most is a stable day-to-day existence shielded from drugs, gangs, and criminal behavior." You do realize you're talking out of your ass right? 99% of inner-city youths don't do drugs, aren't in gangs, and aren't involved in criminal behavior. Nice way to stereotype them though.

You don't have to partake in any of that to be adversely affected by it.

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#26

Post by dspeyer » Sat, Nov 20, 2010, 10:41 PM UTC

alphaoverlord wrote: post #10

wheaties wrote: post #3

This is easy to say but hard to do. "Based on excellence" is the mantra I've heard from software development circles for years and yet... 1. How many of us have lost productivity because some other developer ran rough-shod through code caring not for maintainability, readability, or even extensibility? Which one was praised and which one rewarded? Doesn't apply to teachers? Ever have a dud who couldn't do simple math…

This might sound trite, but I think the solution would be to couple standardized testing with performance based pay. Unlike code, it's hard to aim for solely short-term gains. As long as teachers aren't cheating, I can't imagine many ways to teach students that aren't inherently beneficial to the student. Teaching better study habits, etc might not be directly related to their material, but it still helps the student…

In many cases, you will get better short-term results by drilling recipes or factoids than pursuing deep understanding, though the latter is far more valuable in the long run (and in early schooling, long is the only run that matters). There's too much trivia-memorizing in schools as it is.

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#27

Post by tisganitis » Sat, Nov 20, 2010, 10:42 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #18

wheaties wrote: post #3

This is easy to say but hard to do. "Based on excellence" is the mantra I've heard from software development circles for years and yet... 1. How many of us have lost productivity because some other developer ran rough-shod through code caring not for maintainability, readability, or even extensibility? Which one was praised and which one rewarded? Doesn't apply to teachers? Ever have a dud who couldn't do simple math…

There is no bureaucratic rule that can be devised that can separate good teachers from bad ones. Every such rule can and will be gamed. It's like the difference between art and porn - the difference is obvious by inspection, but impossible to codify. With a free market school system, people will know who the good teachers are and will pay for them (supply and demand). With a government school system, this simply will…

Right, and in a free market system, those who can pay for the best teachers will get them, and those who cannot pay will be left with the worst teachers. Isn't that unfair?

That is also exactly the opposite of what Gates is trying to accomplish with his plan. He wants to incentivize teachers to work with the poorest students at the most disadvantaged schools. By definition, the free market alone CANNOT solve this problem.

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#28

Post by yummyfajitas » Sat, Nov 20, 2010, 10:47 PM UTC

wheaties wrote: post #3

This is easy to say but hard to do. "Based on excellence" is the mantra I've heard from software development circles for years and yet... 1. How many of us have lost productivity because some other developer ran rough-shod through code caring not for maintainability, readability, or even extensibility? Which one was praised and which one rewarded? Doesn't apply to teachers? Ever have a dud who couldn't do simple math…

Regarding 2), you do it via Value Added Modeling. You build a statistical predictor of student performance (based on standardized test scores) then measure Performance = Avg(Actual - predicted).

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#29

Post by yummyfajitas » Sat, Nov 20, 2010, 10:49 PM UTC

HaloZero wrote: post #20

alphaoverlord wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might sound trite, but I think the solution would be to couple standardized testing with performance based pay. Unlike code, it's hard to aim for solely short-term gains. As long as teachers aren't cheating, I can't imagine many ways to teach students that aren't inherently beneficial to the student. Teaching better study habits, etc might not be directly related to their material, but it still helps the student…

The argument against standard test scores as the metric is that it covers two basic competencies, reading and mathematics. Which are of course fundamental but there are edge cases of people who have no interest in those fields but would prefer foreign languages, arts, etc. Teachers in the arts can inspire and help provide to students but don't have any standardized evaluation method. Plus for students who are younger…

We can't have standardized foreign language or art tests?

Re: Bill Gates: End teacher bonuses based on master's degrees and seniority

#30

Post by WalterBright » Sat, Nov 20, 2010, 10:49 PM UTC

_delirium wrote: post #19

WalterBright wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no bureaucratic rule that can be devised that can separate good teachers from bad ones. Every such rule can and will be gamed. It's like the difference between art and porn - the difference is obvious by inspection, but impossible to codify. With a free market school system, people will know who the good teachers are and will pay for them (supply and demand). With a government school system, this simply will…

Unless the teachers are going to be individually contracted by parents, don't private-sector schools have the same evaluation problem? They still have to separate good and bad teachers via some sort of process, probably overseen by management (aka bureaucracy). The similarity of the agency problems is one reason corporations internally often look so much like governments.

To some extent, sure, the larger the organization is the more bureaucratic and inefficient it gets at about everything. But there's still one fundamental difference - with public schools, one is forced to attend (truancy laws) and forced to pay for it.