Running a Bakery on Emacs and PostgreSQL • Hacker News Board

Re: Running a Bakery on Emacs and PostgreSQL

#21

Post by frogcoder » Tue, Feb 26, 2019, 1:49 PM UTC

kiallmacinnes wrote: post #7

rahimnathwani wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There's no way you can do something similar with spreadsheets?" You can, but the author is using tools that are more familiar to him, and hence more productive for him. Just like when doing some quick and dirty analysis, some people will reach for Excel, some for R, some for Pandas. None of those people is wrong. Some people go too far the other way: spend too much time learning new tools, and not enough creating th…

There is a downside to this though .. For this bakery, if you hire someone, theres a reasonable chance they can use a spreadsheet (maybe not add new recipes etc, but use..). I'd bet is very unlikely the same will be true of SQL and emacs. In tech/development, it's akin to someone building a system in some obscure language, because they are most productive and the only ones developing it today.. It's likely that syste…

Well, he built the system, Emacs is the front end. It's just an awkward front end for most of the people, but with proper training, anyone can pick it up, it's not like ask them to maintain the system.

For new formulas, yeah, It's hard to input new formulas, even in spreadsheet. The system is somehow complex, you probably need a UI for new formulas too, even if it's in spreadsheet.

Re: Running a Bakery on Emacs and PostgreSQL

#22

Post by ken » Tue, Feb 26, 2019, 1:51 PM UTC

0x445442 wrote: post #17

mhd wrote: post #10

This makes me wonder what someone with less computer experience would do, ie if you're not a former computer professional. Sure, open source makes everything rather accessible from a monetary point of view, but you still have to learn things. I almost feel like in the past there were more attempts at making this accessible to the end user, HyperCard, dbase etc, even just BASIC on your 8-bit machine. Nowadays? Excel/G…

Can't remember where I read the story, Steve Yegge perhaps. But they were talking about how where they worked secretaries actually used Emacs apps developed by the IT department and, over time, the secretaries started to extend the apps with Elisp.

Millions of people used WP5, with its cryptic codes and huge keyboard overlays. I don’t believe that’s any easier than Emacs (or HTML). People can figure things out, when they have to.

Re: Running a Bakery on Emacs and PostgreSQL

#23

Post by bitexploder » Tue, Feb 26, 2019, 1:51 PM UTC

kome wrote: post #19

mhd wrote: post #10

This makes me wonder what someone with less computer experience would do, ie if you're not a former computer professional. Sure, open source makes everything rather accessible from a monetary point of view, but you still have to learn things. I almost feel like in the past there were more attempts at making this accessible to the end user, HyperCard, dbase etc, even just BASIC on your 8-bit machine. Nowadays? Excel/G…

> I almost feel like in the past there were more attempts at making this accessible to the end user, HyperCard, dbase etc, even just BASIC on your 8-bit machine. Oh for sure, look at web: we transformed something simple and beautiful like html+css in a complete shit show. Also, I don't feel like the new programming languages are easier then COBOL or BASIC, quite the contrary. We are making technology more complicated…

I still miss VB6. It was a beautiful tool and easy to make GUIs with. I still can’t handle writing native GUIs without a good WYSIWYG editor. Delphi was cool, but Object Pascal?! Many people still swear by Delphi and it’s because when your code is UI focused Delphi makes that super easy.

Re: Running a Bakery on Emacs and PostgreSQL

#24

Post by emarsden » Tue, Feb 26, 2019, 1:59 PM UTC

0x445442 wrote: post #17

mhd wrote: post #10

This makes me wonder what someone with less computer experience would do, ie if you're not a former computer professional. Sure, open source makes everything rather accessible from a monetary point of view, but you still have to learn things. I almost feel like in the past there were more attempts at making this accessible to the end user, HyperCard, dbase etc, even just BASIC on your 8-bit machine. Nowadays? Excel/G…

Can't remember where I read the story, Steve Yegge perhaps. But they were talking about how where they worked secretaries actually used Emacs apps developed by the IT department and, over time, the secretaries started to extend the apps with Elisp.

That's from Richard Stallman. “Multics Emacs proved to be a great success — programming new editing commands was so convenient that even the secretaries in his office started learning how to use it. They used a manual someone had written which showed how to extend Emacs, but didn't say it was a programming. So the secretaries, who believed they couldn't do programming, weren't scared off. They read the manual, discovered they could do useful things and they learned to program.”

https://www.gnu.org/gnu/rms-lisp.en.html

Re: Running a Bakery on Emacs and PostgreSQL

#25

Post by kamaal » Tue, Feb 26, 2019, 2:03 PM UTC

0x445442 wrote: post #17

mhd wrote: post #10

This makes me wonder what someone with less computer experience would do, ie if you're not a former computer professional. Sure, open source makes everything rather accessible from a monetary point of view, but you still have to learn things. I almost feel like in the past there were more attempts at making this accessible to the end user, HyperCard, dbase etc, even just BASIC on your 8-bit machine. Nowadays? Excel/G…

Can't remember where I read the story, Steve Yegge perhaps. But they were talking about how where they worked secretaries actually used Emacs apps developed by the IT department and, over time, the secretaries started to extend the apps with Elisp.

Its from RMS, not Steve Yegge: https://www.gnu.org/gnu/rms-lisp.en.html

It was Bernie Greenberg, who discovered that it was (2). He wrote a version of Emacs in Multics MacLisp, and he wrote his commands in MacLisp in a straightforward fashion. The editor itself was written entirely in Lisp. Multics Emacs proved to be a great success — programming new editing commands was so convenient that even the secretaries in his office started learning how to use it. They used a manual someone had written which showed how to extend Emacs, but didn't say it was a programming. So the secretaries, who believed they couldn't do programming, weren't scared off. They read the manual, discovered they could do useful things and they learned to program.

Re: Running a Bakery on Emacs and PostgreSQL

#26

Post by mikemac » Tue, Feb 26, 2019, 2:05 PM UTC

tyingq wrote: post #16

mhd wrote: post #10

This makes me wonder what someone with less computer experience would do, ie if you're not a former computer professional. Sure, open source makes everything rather accessible from a monetary point of view, but you still have to learn things. I almost feel like in the past there were more attempts at making this accessible to the end user, HyperCard, dbase etc, even just BASIC on your 8-bit machine. Nowadays? Excel/G…

There's a fair amount of low code type web application makers. Google's AppMaker, Quickbase, Zoho Creator, Knack, Airtable, etc. No real comparable open source equivalent for these types of things yet.

i'm not a programmer and i was able to string together an SMS RSVP system for my floor hockey league with zapier, google sheets and twilio.

Re: Running a Bakery on Emacs and PostgreSQL

#27

Post by black-tea » Tue, Feb 26, 2019, 2:11 PM UTC

I see that I'm not the only geek who likes baking. When I was a PhD student I seriously considered packing it all in and starting a bakery. I'd just discovered what seemed like the forgotten secret of good bread: time. At the that time in the UK most bakery bread was terrible and bread recipes in books or online called for short rises in warm places. I had to go back to older books to discover the secret.

I would have been ahead of my time if I'd actually gone through with it. These days it seems that the secret is out again with recipes calling for 6+ hour rises. In the town I used to live there is a very successful artisan bakery now.

Re: Running a Bakery on Emacs and PostgreSQL

#28

Post by pault » Tue, Feb 26, 2019, 2:12 PM UTC

kome wrote: post #19

mhd wrote: post #10

This makes me wonder what someone with less computer experience would do, ie if you're not a former computer professional. Sure, open source makes everything rather accessible from a monetary point of view, but you still have to learn things. I almost feel like in the past there were more attempts at making this accessible to the end user, HyperCard, dbase etc, even just BASIC on your 8-bit machine. Nowadays? Excel/G…

> I almost feel like in the past there were more attempts at making this accessible to the end user, HyperCard, dbase etc, even just BASIC on your 8-bit machine. Oh for sure, look at web: we transformed something simple and beautiful like html+css in a complete shit show. Also, I don't feel like the new programming languages are easier then COBOL or BASIC, quite the contrary. We are making technology more complicated…

IMO it's more a product of people expecting more from software. It's no longer enough to have something that works; it has to work and be pretty and user friendly.

Re: Running a Bakery on Emacs and PostgreSQL

#29

Post by bachmeier » Tue, Feb 26, 2019, 2:22 PM UTC

0x445442 wrote: post #17

mhd wrote: post #10

This makes me wonder what someone with less computer experience would do, ie if you're not a former computer professional. Sure, open source makes everything rather accessible from a monetary point of view, but you still have to learn things. I almost feel like in the past there were more attempts at making this accessible to the end user, HyperCard, dbase etc, even just BASIC on your 8-bit machine. Nowadays? Excel/G…

Can't remember where I read the story, Steve Yegge perhaps. But they were talking about how where they worked secretaries actually used Emacs apps developed by the IT department and, over time, the secretaries started to extend the apps with Elisp.

Steve Yegge told this story:

> Mailman was the Customer Service customer-email processing application for ... four, five years? A long time, anyway. It was written in Emacs. Everyone loved it.

> People still love it. To this very day, I still have to listen to long stories from our non-technical folks about how much they miss Mailman. I'm not shitting you. Last Christmas I was at an Amazon party, some party I have no idea how I got invited to, filled with business people, all of them much prettier and more charming than me and the folks I work with here in the Furnace, the Boiler Room of Amazon. Four young women found out I was in Customer Service, cornered me, and talked for fifteen minutes about how much they missed Mailman and Emacs, and how Arizona (the JSP replacement we'd spent years developing) still just wasn't doing it for them.

https://sites.google.com/site/steveyegge2/tour-de-babel

Re: Running a Bakery on Emacs and PostgreSQL

#30

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Feb 26, 2019, 2:22 PM UTC

0x445442 wrote: post #17

mhd wrote: post #10

This makes me wonder what someone with less computer experience would do, ie if you're not a former computer professional. Sure, open source makes everything rather accessible from a monetary point of view, but you still have to learn things. I almost feel like in the past there were more attempts at making this accessible to the end user, HyperCard, dbase etc, even just BASIC on your 8-bit machine. Nowadays? Excel/G…

Can't remember where I read the story, Steve Yegge perhaps. But they were talking about how where they worked secretaries actually used Emacs apps developed by the IT department and, over time, the secretaries started to extend the apps with Elisp.

[deleted]