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Berlin Builds Ideas to Stage a Housing Revolution

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Re: Berlin Builds Ideas to Stage a Housing Revolution

#181

Post by scotty79 »

tryptophan wrote: post #154
scotty79 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why wouldn't everyone's rent increase by whatever that tax is? Because the tax is progressive, which means is not equal for all landlords, which means if big landlords increased their rent by their tax then nobody would rent from them because smaller landlords would have smaller rents thanks to smaller tax. This way large landlords no longer find owning real estate profitable and relocate their capital away from re…

You seem to have the misconception that rents are set by individual owners(a large company, or 1 house/person landlord). In actuality, rents are set by the rental market overall, governed by supply and demand. It doesn't matter if 500 homes to rent are owned by 2 or 200 people. A tax like that would just make rents increase to X+Y for units owned by large landlords, where Y is the new tax cost. X would not change, ma…

You seem to have the misconception that rents are set by supply and demand that are free variables. In reality rents are tightly bound to the mortgage. Rent for a property is roughly the same as mortgage for the same property. It can't be much higher because otherwise people would just buy instead of rent. It can't be much lower because that would mean that property is in unattractive spot which drives the price of property down to match.

> In actuality, rents are set by the rental market overall, governed by supply and demand. It doesn't matter if 500 homes to rent are owned by 2 or 200 people.

In actuality price of a thing depends on amount of units of a thing and amount of capital that people interested in the thing have. If you drive out some amount of capital from some market the prices will drop. As properties prices drop, rent drops.

> A tax like that would just make rents increase to X+Y for units owned by large landlords, where Y is the new tax cost. X would not change, making the policy achieve exactly nothing.

It would be X+Y for large land lords but X+y for small landlords (where y<Y because the tax is progressive). So large landlords wouldn't find much demand for their properties, which would force them to sell to individuals and smaller landlords. Which is exactly the point of the tax.

Re: Berlin Builds Ideas to Stage a Housing Revolution

#182

Post by lgbr »

adrianN wrote: post #176
dmix wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only way to keep rents this low in the face of rising demand is public housing that is rented out below market rates to low income tenants, or via a lottery. Or you know, build more housing.

Pretty hard to do in a dense city and doesn't help very much. Unless kill Berlin's character and transform the city center into a collection of skyscrapers, demand for the city center will always far outstrip supply. Berlin is not San Francisco, where large parts of the city center are single family homes with two stories or less.

Berlin really isn't that dense, and it's surrounded by Brandenburg, which is a whole bunch of flat, empty land. Furthermore, the rail network exists to handle extra capacity, so there really are no more physical constraints on building further.

Re: Berlin Builds Ideas to Stage a Housing Revolution

#183

Post by pell »

berlinerluft wrote: post #180
pell wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany - like many other countries - is not a libertarian state. Pricing caps are not new here, underpricing and overpricing are defined and limited in certain scenarios and for a number of goods like doctor or lawyer fees, medication, books, your ISP, etc. Obviously one can debate such decisions and their merit but if you simply reduce this to having a "frivolous concept of property" it's difficult to have a conver…

To simplify: to be entitled to something and to pay for it are some very different things. I'd argue that somebody who claims wealthy people paying for stuff is the same as entitlement is the person who is actually destructive. As for the other German laws: I can't think of anything good that has come from them. Socialism has a way to sneak up on countries. That's all there is to it.

The problem is that you're simplifying in the first place. You seem to use "entitlement" only in a negative fashion akin to "freeloading" or "expecting something for free". I am using entitlement in a legal sense, in this case being entitled to/having a claim to/a right to buy at the highest price. The German word here would be "Anspruch".

So, we can debate whether the highest bidder has a claim to something. I certainly understand the arguments for it. But there are scenarios where I do argue that this is something that should not be permitted or at least not for 100% of the available goods.

As to your point about nothing good having come from such German laws, I disagree. Health care, legal counsel, medication, among other things are affordable in Germany while they can pose an existential risk in places without such limits.

Re: Berlin Builds Ideas to Stage a Housing Revolution

#184

Post by ahaferburg »

adrianN wrote: post #175
IloveHN84 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost nowhere in the city center are the rents less than 10€/sqm now in Berlin. If so, the flat is probably in a very old stable and in a not so good condition.

I pay 10€/sqm and need 30 minutes by bike to Brandenburg Gate. That's for a four year old contract. People who have been living in their apartments for decades, that is, the people who are too old to easily move and fear rising rents, usually pay less.

Rents are rising steeply. +29% in P'berg since 2014.

Re: Berlin Builds Ideas to Stage a Housing Revolution

#185

Post by berlinerluft »

pell wrote: post #183
berlinerluft wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To simplify: to be entitled to something and to pay for it are some very different things. I'd argue that somebody who claims wealthy people paying for stuff is the same as entitlement is the person who is actually destructive. As for the other German laws: I can't think of anything good that has come from them. Socialism has a way to sneak up on countries. That's all there is to it.

The problem is that you're simplifying in the first place. You seem to use "entitlement" only in a negative fashion akin to "freeloading" or "expecting something for free". I am using entitlement in a legal sense, in this case being entitled to/having a claim to/a right to buy at the highest price. The German word here would be "Anspruch". So, we can debate whether the highest bidder has a claim to something. I certa…

You are of course not entitled to buy, as in general nobody is obliged to sell.

If somebody should be forced to sell at a lower than their preferred price, the question is, by what rights should he be forced to do so? The government would effectively be stealing from that individual. By what rationale/right? As I said in another post, I personally did not get the benefit of a cheap place to rent in the center of Berlin. Why should I think other people have a right to it?

You mention healthcare, but I don't think you can force physicians to work for an arbitrarily low fee. That's not how the system works in Germany, either. Public health insurance defines how much they are prepared to pay for things in the healthcare system. That is not the same as enforcing a maximum price. And especially with the German health care system, I'd argue that normal people have no idea of the actual upsides and downsides of the system.

If there is a maximum price on health procedures, it means certain procedures won't be available.

I've actually heard that there is already a health care tourism industry in Germany, which means the most skilled physicians might not be available for publicly insured people anymore, because they serve rich people from Saudi Arabia. Sure, in that sense it is bad for the normal people. On the other hand, highly skilled people might not even exist without high incentives, and in the end more people might decide to train to become highly skilled. Expensive machinery might be used for less solvent patients if there is a downtime. It's not so easy to claim benefits of limiting laws.

Re: Berlin Builds Ideas to Stage a Housing Revolution

#186

Post by arcaster »

adrianN wrote: post #9

The truth is that rents in Berlin are exceptionally cheap compared to other major cities. Try finding a flat in London or Paris for The only way to keep rents this low in the face of rising demand is public housing that is rented out below market rates to low income tenants, or via a lottery.

> The only way to keep rents this low in the face of rising demand is public housing that is rented out below market rates to low income tenants, or via a lottery.

Except for the fact that poor people aren't the ones driving up demand or prices for decent housing...

Re: Berlin Builds Ideas to Stage a Housing Revolution

#187

Post by arcaster »

CalRobert wrote: post #88
choeger wrote: post #17

Everyone and their cat wants to live as close as humanly possible to the hip center of the hip city. But of course, they literally do not want to pay the price. Why is there a vegan bakery specialized in Afghan Bagel[1] around the corner? Because there are enough hip, young professionals to pay for even the most unlikely specialty. Business can afford to cater to the most extraordinary taste, but only because there a…

4. I think you forgot "build taller"? " it is ironic how the modern urban population that is so quick to assign blame for climate change (to car owners, carnivores), social injustice (to white men, preferably older), or simply a lack of mobile network coverage fails to understand their own contribution to the problems of a modern city." What are you talking about? Cars ARE half the problems of a modern city. Car owne…

Can't agree more. Your point is also applicable to people who delude themselves into believing an "off-grid" or "homestead" lifestyle is less burdensome to the environment or lends to a less consumerist way of life...

Re: Berlin Builds Ideas to Stage a Housing Revolution

#188

Post by CalRobert »

arcaster wrote: post #187
CalRobert wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

4. I think you forgot "build taller"? " it is ironic how the modern urban population that is so quick to assign blame for climate change (to car owners, carnivores), social injustice (to white men, preferably older), or simply a lack of mobile network coverage fails to understand their own contribution to the problems of a modern city." What are you talking about? Cars ARE half the problems of a modern city. Car owne…

Can't agree more. Your point is also applicable to people who delude themselves into believing an "off-grid" or "homestead" lifestyle is less burdensome to the environment or lends to a less consumerist way of life...

If you're _really_ off-grid, it probably is. A hermit living off the land in a wooden shack they make with hand tools and solar panels on top, using a mountain bike to get around, probably doesn't have much of a carbon footprint.

The main issue is when you're still basically on-grid but a long ways away from everything, and depend on a car.

Though I am probably biased because I just bought a bit of land and hope to grow my own food on it. Pretty easy bike ride from the train station, though, and I work 100% remote.

Re: Berlin Builds Ideas to Stage a Housing Revolution

#189

Post by drugme »

adrianN wrote: post #9

The truth is that rents in Berlin are exceptionally cheap compared to other major cities. Try finding a flat in London or Paris for The only way to keep rents this low in the face of rising demand is public housing that is rented out below market rates to low income tenants, or via a lottery.

The truth is that rents in Berlin are exceptionally cheap compared to other major cities.

What the article is concerned about is not how current rents in Berlin compare to cities like London or Paris. But how they compare to rents in Berlin just a few years ago. Or that is -- the impact of rising rents on, you know, local people.

The only way to keep rents this low in the face of rising demand is public housing that is rented out below market rates to low income tenants, or via a lottery.

There are multiple strategies available, and no one strategy will be sufficient. That was the main point of the article.

Re: Berlin Builds Ideas to Stage a Housing Revolution

#190

Post by magduf »

pintxo wrote: post #61
ForHackernews wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find that hard to believe. Most German cities are low-rise, not skyscrapers. Elsewhere in this thread, somebody mentioned that Berlin's population today is still below its pre-WWII high.

It was about 4m before the war. Is not about 3.6 Considering that today’s living arrangements (sqft per person) is quite different (larger) than 80 years ago, I am not sure this is working argument.

The simple solution is to build up. Build residential buildings twice as tall and suddenly having larger living units doesn't seem crazy. We have the technology today to build taller buildings than we did before WWII, more economically.

The central problem with all these discussions about housing prices is construction. There isn't enough of it, it's too expensive in some places for what you're getting, the whole thing is completely broken and needs to be fixed. It should not be hard to build new housing units to modern standards.

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