Berlin Builds Ideas to Stage a Housing Revolution • Hacker News Board

Re: Berlin Builds Ideas to Stage a Housing Revolution

#81

Post by rstupek » Mon, Feb 25, 2019, 7:48 PM UTC

moccachino wrote: post #53

scotty79 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that the sheer fact of some people being incredibly wealthy does much harm and it also can do some good. When the money lands in the hands of rich people it essentially leaves the economy same way as if it was just burned because they won't be giving that money back to real world economy anytime soon. It just lowers inflation a bit so everything becomes a bit cheaper than it otherwise would be. Rich peo…

Sure, I've actually got nothing against rich people or even the idea of super rich people. But the whole system is set up in such a way that if you're wealthy you own the world and have to actively screw up to not get wealthier. The system just needs a tiny self-correction mechanism. And the problem with immense wealth is not raising inflation or anything like that, that is market stuff that will correct itself. The…

Robert Kraft may have to disagree with you on your last assertion that the law can't touch rich people.

Re: Berlin Builds Ideas to Stage a Housing Revolution

#82

Post by mltvc » Mon, Feb 25, 2019, 7:49 PM UTC

I moved from Belgium to Berlin 2 months ago. To me Berlin looks really spread out compared to Belgian cities and a lot of other big cities. To test my feeling I just checked this map [1]. It's clear that the population density in Berlin is lower than in other European cities like London or Paris. Even smaller cities like Brussels, Copenhagen and Stockholm are denser.

So I think there is still is a lot of potential to relax zoning laws and let more homes be built. This is the best way to lower rents imo.

[1] https://pudding.cool/2018/10/city_3d/

Re: Berlin Builds Ideas to Stage a Housing Revolution

#83

Post by AdrianB1 » Mon, Feb 25, 2019, 7:50 PM UTC

scotty79 wrote: post #11

Not a hard limit. Just progressive tax that makes owning much real estate very expensive and in effect unprofitable.

Tax is not policy and not punishment. Get over that.

Re: Berlin Builds Ideas to Stage a Housing Revolution

#84

Post by TomMckenny » Mon, Feb 25, 2019, 7:58 PM UTC

choeger wrote: post #17

Everyone and their cat wants to live as close as humanly possible to the hip center of the hip city. But of course, they literally do not want to pay the price. Why is there a vegan bakery specialized in Afghan Bagel[1] around the corner? Because there are enough hip, young professionals to pay for even the most unlikely specialty. Business can afford to cater to the most extraordinary taste, but only because there a…

Rents out pace wages in suburbs and rural areas too. They rise in SF, Fresno and Anchorage. Even places people flee like Flint Michigan, land costs rise. They are unbearably high even in tiny apartment Tokyo where a 4m ceiling means you have no roof.

They rise in places with bad public transportation and good. The rise in supposedly under-priced Berlin and supposedly over priced San Francisco.

Land is not a normal commodity and the market has never fixed this anywhere using indirect tweaks. By all means, build more public transit but it won't fix housing prices anymore than it did in LA

Re: Berlin Builds Ideas to Stage a Housing Revolution

#85

Post by dexen » Mon, Feb 25, 2019, 7:58 PM UTC

EliRivers wrote: post #12

ginko wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always wondered if there might be some way to write a law that essentially bans clever financial tricks.

There is, but the trend in US (and UK) law has unfortunately gone down a path that makes this very difficult. The letter of the law is given great weight, no matter the intention of the law. For example, in tax law, the game is to find ways to not actually violate the exact letter of the law. The idea of the spirit of the law has no force; everything has to be precisely outlawed. This, of course, is an infinite game…

>The letter of the law is given great weight, no matter the intention of the law.

You are assigning the responsibility the wrong way around.

The letter, and the intent, of the law have two points of interfacing: the point of execution (interpretation by the taxpayers or by the courts of law), and the point of redaction (the lawmakers distilling the intent into actual letter of the law).

In case of the letter of the law not representing the intent, we would be much better off assigning the blame to the lawmakers. It is both their primary duty, and also what they have the best tools for. Putting the onus on anybody else than the lawmakers creates perverse incentive to get bribed for sake of writing loopholes into the law.

When the lawmakers fail at properly writing the laws, punish the lawmakers: both vote them out, and also have the media launch investigation into possible corruption - the slip-up could very well be intentional.

Re: Berlin Builds Ideas to Stage a Housing Revolution

#86

Post by vvillena » Mon, Feb 25, 2019, 8:10 PM UTC

Mirioron wrote: post #32

buro9 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Due to the limits of public transportation Fix this. People live within n time of where they want to be. If people can travel faster then the space within n time can be greater. This is the key to Tokyo and other very large metropolis cities. Have public transport offer high speed and frequent rail routes, and then many local solutions from cycling, walking, buses, trams.

> This is the key to Tokyo and other very large metropolis cities. But they also live in small apartments and homes. I'm not convinced that Tokyo is a good example here. The key to this problem is to have jobs in places that aren't large urban centers. This way the population spreads out and housing becomes more affordable.

This is also how Tokyo does it. There's no main, well-defined downtown where people go to work. Spreading the commutes across the whole transport network is a tremendous optimization.

Re: Berlin Builds Ideas to Stage a Housing Revolution

#87

Post by vvillena » Mon, Feb 25, 2019, 8:13 PM UTC

areyousure wrote: post #60

tyfon wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the reasons for the cheap rent is the fact that the population of Berlin is still below what it was prior to WWII. I found it quite baffling at least when I read about it. The city got hit _hard_

The population of Manhattan is also below its pre-WWII level, and much below its ~1910 peak, but rent is not cheap.

The difference lies on the metropolitan area. The New York area is surely more populated than in WW2, even if Manhattan isn't.

Re: Berlin Builds Ideas to Stage a Housing Revolution

#88

Post by CalRobert » Mon, Feb 25, 2019, 8:14 PM UTC

choeger wrote: post #17

Everyone and their cat wants to live as close as humanly possible to the hip center of the hip city. But of course, they literally do not want to pay the price. Why is there a vegan bakery specialized in Afghan Bagel[1] around the corner? Because there are enough hip, young professionals to pay for even the most unlikely specialty. Business can afford to cater to the most extraordinary taste, but only because there a…

4. I think you forgot "build taller"?

" it is ironic how the modern urban population that is so quick to assign blame for climate change (to car owners, carnivores), social injustice (to white men, preferably older), or simply a lack of mobile network coverage fails to understand their own contribution to the problems of a modern city."

What are you talking about? Cars ARE half the problems of a modern city. Car owners are the other half. Rip out the damn parking and put in flats. Ban cars and put in bike lanes. They're far, far more efficient, and have the added benefit of not mowing down pedestrians and boiling children.

Re: Berlin Builds Ideas to Stage a Housing Revolution

#89

Post by dsfyu404ed » Mon, Feb 25, 2019, 8:14 PM UTC

AdrianB1 wrote: post #83

scotty79 wrote: post #11

Not a hard limit. Just progressive tax that makes owning much real estate very expensive and in effect unprofitable.

Tax is not policy and not punishment. Get over that.

It walks like a duck and quacks like a duck. The only people who say it's not a duck are the ones who want to make their particular pet duck seem more agreeable to people who do not particularly like said duck.

Re: Berlin Builds Ideas to Stage a Housing Revolution

#90

Post by posterboy » Mon, Feb 25, 2019, 8:18 PM UTC

dalbasal wrote: post #46

adrianN wrote: post #9

The truth is that rents in Berlin are exceptionally cheap compared to other major cities. Try finding a flat in London or Paris for The only way to keep rents this low in the face of rising demand is public housing that is rented out below market rates to low income tenants, or via a lottery.

In central London you would struggle to find a flat for 3 times that. That's 1100 (100 meters) sqft for £2600 (€3000 @ €30 per meter). Even Munich is probably twice that "€10 p sqm centrally located" price.

A half hour on bycicle gets me from the countryside to Alexanderplatz and the Fernsehturm, changing roads just once, if I trained a bit and get a green streak. In the inner city you will struggle to find 10€ p m², even in the outskirts where I live, now since the rents increased, unless it's run down.