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Is it still ok to have kids in face of climate change?

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Re: Is it still ok to have kids in face of climate change?

#71
post #60

The thing I never understood that if entropy steadily marches on, and the sun's energy is finite, isn't this all going to end bad anyways? What will it matter to if we all voluntarily go extinct and add another millennia or two or three to the Earth? It will either overheat in a global warming or face eternal freezing when the sun burns out. Why not enjoy the ride while it lasts and allow others to as well.

It's an interesting question. I think where it goes awry is that your choices directly impact the ability of others to enjoy it. So your voluntary choices (assuming they're detrimental) could mean billions of people don't even get that choice. So what gives you the right to make that choice for them?

Not arguing, just offering a counterpoint.

Re: Is it still ok to have kids in face of climate change?

#72
This is /r/im14andthisisdeep material. Life is inherently joyful, especially for children, even under challenging circumstances. The net happiness rating in Bangladesh is +74%--i.e. 74% more people report themselves happy than report themselves unhappy: https://www.globalresearch.ca/global-polling-which-nations-a.... Decreasing human population decreases the aggregate net happiness experienced by the world.

Also, almost nobody believes it would be better to not exist than to exist in challenging circumstances. That's why cancer patients fight through incredibly painful chemotherapy to get a few extra years of life. If you were offered a painless, consequence free death, would you take up that offer to avoid facing the upcoming uncertainties of climate change? Almost nobody would. Why do you think your potential kids would feel differently?

Re: Is it still ok to have kids in face of climate change?

#73
Numbers of kids may also be relevant.

If you're choosing to have kids, it still seems more ecologically responsible to have two or fewer. If two adults have up to two children, that's an overall reduction in population (because not all children reproduce or reach reproductive age).

Fortunately this is already happening[0] which is why several Western countries populations are shrinking[1] often being propped up by immigration.

[0] PDF Warning: https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/visualizat...

[1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/joelkotkin/2017/02/01/death-spi...

Re: Is it still ok to have kids in face of climate change?

#74

I’ve always believed that if you’re a smart, educated, motivated person (if your reading this than I’m assuming you are one) that probably the best thing you can do for the world is to have kids. Those kids will likely contribute to the world in all sorts of ways that we can’t imagine.

I get your argument, but in terms of environmental impact on climate change, those ‘smart, educated, and motivated’ kids will likely have a greater negative impact on climate change than less educated kids. It is the successful people who harm the environment the most. I still don’t believe that we should stop having kids, but let’s not pretend that OUR kids won’t harm the environment.

It's also the educated, motivated kids in the developed world that have the greatest chance of averting or remediating climate change.

Re: Is it still ok to have kids in face of climate change?

#75
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did any of those groups they have a scientific basis for believing that having kids would speed up the advent of the apocalypse or worsen its effects? Let's not draw false parallels.

"The Population Bomb" was a pretty fashionable scientific prediction back in the 1960s which had a significant following in the academic and policymaker circles at the time. It extrapolated from data about population growth, farmland capacity, etc, to reach the irrefutable conclusion that there is going to be mass starvation and famine in the 1970s. It led to calls for China-style population controls, to articles abo…

Thanks for bringing this up! An excellent book on this is: The Bet: Paul Ehrlich, Julian Simon, and Our Gamble over Earth’s Future by Paul Sabin

Re: Is it still ok to have kids in face of climate change?

#76
Many countries, especially in the West, are not reproducing at replacement rate.

Also, there may be a scientific consensus about climate change, but that does not carry into economic predictions of collapse. Economic predictions are not the same thing as physical ones.

It's always been the case that the kids are responsible for what they do when it's their turn. Regardless of how hopeless it looked.

Re: Is it still ok to have kids in face of climate change?

#77
post #46
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you implying kids of "smart, educated, motivated person" will contribute more than kids of people who don't fall into your arbitrary definition?

If not, why have an education system at all?

Exactly? Education happens in school, college, friends, community and, partially, at home.

The concept that "my kids" are better than other people kids because they are like me is extremely silly on many levels. They might not share your ideals and even if they do, it promotes a single line of thinking.

Re: Is it still ok to have kids in face of climate change?

#78
The admittedly rather silly way I've framed this in my own mind is to ask if it was ok for, say, people living in Rome during the fall of the Roman Empire to have kids, living as they were through the total collapse of their civilization.

In retrospect it seems more silly (to me, anyway) to suggest that they shouldn't have had children because the children and their descendants would have had a hard time living through the collapse and ensuing "Dark Ages."

Their very distant descendants would have gone on to live through the most prosperous period in human history, which certainly wasn't foreseeable to the people living through the bad times.

Before anyone says that it's not comparable because the Roman Empire was just a small part of the world, and that we're destroying the whole world through climate change, I would suggest that for people living in Rome back then, Rome would have felt like the whole world and the vast majority of people were unlikely to uproot and move more than a few tens of miles, nevertheless, the population of Rome declined by, what, 99%?

In addition, most of the worst case scenarios for climate change seem to indicate the displacement of a few billion people at most, which would be terrible, to be sure. But the mere migration of a few billion people will probably be insignificant on the timescale of a thousand years.

More permanent destructive changes to the environment could cause massive human death, but I personally haven't seen predictions on the order of 99% of people dying (or anything remotely near that) and it seems like there's a pretty good chance that a new equilibrium would be reached at some point and the population of the Earth would surge again. Even the worst predictions seem like they could end up being inconsequential on long enough timescales.

And this doesn't even address the whole Idiocracy situation where arguably the best way to combat a dire future could be to raise kind, compassionate, conscientious children that will go on to steward the world onto a better path.

Needless to say at this point, I'm not convinced that it's remotely unethical to bring children into a difficult world. That's been the state of the world for basically all of human history.

Re: Is it still ok to have kids in face of climate change?

#79

I’ve always believed that if you’re a smart, educated, motivated person (if your reading this than I’m assuming you are one) that probably the best thing you can do for the world is to have kids. Those kids will likely contribute to the world in all sorts of ways that we can’t imagine.

I get your argument, but in terms of environmental impact on climate change, those ‘smart, educated, and motivated’ kids will likely have a greater negative impact on climate change than less educated kids. It is the successful people who harm the environment the most. I still don’t believe that we should stop having kids, but let’s not pretend that OUR kids won’t harm the environment.

Step 1. Move outside the US Step 2. Watch your kids's CO2 emissions get divided by 3 by pure magic.

The lifestyle the US society pushes on you and your children pushes you to have much higher CO2 emissions than really useful (airplanes to go everywhere, higher salaries and higher consumption, ...).

Re: Is it still ok to have kids in face of climate change?

#80
post #52
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you implying kids of "smart, educated, motivated person" will contribute more than kids of people who don't fall into your arbitrary definition?

I think so. There isn't anything controversial being said here. Children given education, good home lives, and goals are more likely to succeed than those without access to those opportunities. It isn't fair, but that doesn't mean we can't look for other ways to improve outcomes across the board.

So the key is giving more kids those opportunities. Not just some kids.
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