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Is Matter Conscious? (2017)

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Re: Is Matter Conscious? (2017)

#201

Post by JoeAltmaier »

dandare wrote: post #200
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That describes behavior, but not the sense of self-awareness? If conscious means, reacting to the environment (opposite of unconscious) then that could make sense. But if it means self-aware it doesn't get any closer to explaining that.

Maybe I don't understand the question. What else is "self-awareness" than a program calculating its own actions based on the knowledge of its own prediction ability? Can you disprove such program will be self-aware? Can you prove your self-awareness is something more?

That's the whole conversation right there. I'm aware of my surroundings in an immediate sense with many states of being inside my head, immersed in my surroundings, caught up in the moment and many others across the spectrum. Unrelated to my cognitive function, logic or fitness for calculating action.

I could create a device that says "I'm self-aware" but does it make it so? You can get your Echo to do that.

Re: Is Matter Conscious? (2017)

#202

Post by vagab0nd »

I've been wondering this for a long time: if we can understand every detail of the inner working of the brain, what happens if I observe my brain in real time? Is it like calling a function recursively without an exit condition?

Re: Is Matter Conscious? (2017)

#203

Post by CuriouslyC »

0-_-0 wrote: post #197
CuriouslyC wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does Occam's Razor apply here? You have evidence that some matter (yourself) experiences its existence. The simplest hypothesis that explains this is that all matter experiences its existence. Any hypothesis that posits that SOME matter experiences its existence and other matter does not requires two different kinds of matter (conscious and not) and a mechanism to switch between the two. Seems that hypothesis req…

> You have evidence that some matter (your PC) can run Windows. The simplest hypothesis that explains this is that all matter can run Windows. Any hypothesis that posits that SOME matter can run Windows and other matter does not requires two different kinds of matter and a mechanism to switch between the two. Seems that hypothesis requires a lot more assumptions.

So, you'd rather posit some mystical juju that makes matter gain consciousness, that somehow magically only happens to humans, and happens to matter when humans eat it, but yet is totally undetectable?

Re: Is Matter Conscious? (2017)

#204

Post by kamaal »

dalbasal wrote: post #179

Enough credible people have publicly considered the idea credible for me to open my mind. But... I have to keep my mind open with a brace. otherwise, it'll call occam's razor & snap shut. At the heart of consciousness particles ideas (I think) is the idea that conciousness can't emerge from nonconscious stuff. This is counterintuitive to me. We now know of all sorts of emergent phenomenon. Species emerge (from other,…

>>Why can't non-conscious matter, arranged precisely, think?

Consciousness is not same as being able to communicate. Let's say a rock is conscious, how would the rock go about informing us that it is conscious? It has no way of signaling its state. Or even a way of acquiring information about anything around it. Or may there is a way, of both signaling or acquiring information that is alien to us but not to other rocks.

Re: Is Matter Conscious? (2017)

#205

Post by kamaal »

CuriouslyC wrote: post #203
0-_-0 wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have evidence that some matter (your PC) can run Windows. The simplest hypothesis that explains this is that all matter can run Windows. Any hypothesis that posits that SOME matter can run Windows and other matter does not requires two different kinds of matter and a mechanism to switch between the two. Seems that hypothesis requires a lot more assumptions.

So, you'd rather posit some mystical juju that makes matter gain consciousness, that somehow magically only happens to humans, and happens to matter when humans eat it, but yet is totally undetectable?

No I guess the parent's point is consciousness is inherent to all things. But it's just that it needs some minimal amount of biological configuration for it to manifest in a way that is meaningfully observable.

Which explain things like eating food(above minimal configuration) and death(Some cells die, failing the minimal configuration criteria).

Re: Is Matter Conscious? (2017)

#206

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

If matter can't be conscious, then what can?

The choices seem to be:

1) consciousness can emerge from matter, and human beings are exhibit A for this.

2) human being are not conscious.

c) There's a "ghost in the machine", a soul, spirit or some other kind of supernatural ghost that's not reducable to matter as we know it.

Re: Is Matter Conscious? (2017)

#207

Post by EliRivers »

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #206

If matter can't be conscious, then what can? The choices seem to be: 1) consciousness can emerge from matter, and human beings are exhibit A for this. 2) human being are not conscious. c) There's a "ghost in the machine", a soul, spirit or some other kind of supernatural ghost that's not reducable to matter as we know it.

Arrangements and patterns, perhaps. The matter isn't conscious. Consiciousness is in the arrangement of matter.

Re: Is Matter Conscious? (2017)

#208

Post by dalbasal »

bjl wrote: post #186
dalbasal wrote: post #179

Enough credible people have publicly considered the idea credible for me to open my mind. But... I have to keep my mind open with a brace. otherwise, it'll call occam's razor & snap shut. At the heart of consciousness particles ideas (I think) is the idea that conciousness can't emerge from nonconscious stuff. This is counterintuitive to me. We now know of all sorts of emergent phenomenon. Species emerge (from other,…

> Can someone point me to the starting point? I must be missing something. Why can't non-conscious matter, arranged precisely, think? The hard problem of consciousness has a long history, but two of the most influential contemporary philosophers in that area are David Chalmers and John Searle.

thanks :)

Can you recommend an essay or paper by either that focuses on the "starting point." IE, why a "chemical computer" version of consciousness can't exist.

Re: Is Matter Conscious? (2017)

#209

Post by dandare »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #201
dandare wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I don't understand the question. What else is "self-awareness" than a program calculating its own actions based on the knowledge of its own prediction ability? Can you disprove such program will be self-aware? Can you prove your self-awareness is something more?

That's the whole conversation right there. I'm aware of my surroundings in an immediate sense with many states of being inside my head, immersed in my surroundings, caught up in the moment and many others across the spectrum. Unrelated to my cognitive function, logic or fitness for calculating action. I could create a device that says "I'm self-aware" but does it make it so? You can get your Echo to do that.

The sense of a moment or you being in your head is only an illusion. You think you see your surroundings outside of your fovea spot, you feel an orgasm in your abdomen, you hear music filling the room - nothing new for the brain. Ask your brain who is doing the thinking in your head and it tells you it is YOU, and you believe it because it is the only answer you ever got.

Interestingly, the self-aware YOU is merely a thin layer of self-propelled lies on the surface of the animal brain. Once you get infected with toxoplasmosis you have a higher risk of automobile accidents or higher chance of promiscuous behavior. You think YOU made that decision? How sweet :)

A simple device that says "I'm self-aware" is easy to fool. But if build a device that is so good at answering the self-awareness question that you can not distinguish it from a human, and by definition, you will no be able to prove that it is not really self-aware.

Re: Is Matter Conscious? (2017)

#210

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

EliRivers wrote: post #207
SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #206

If matter can't be conscious, then what can? The choices seem to be: 1) consciousness can emerge from matter, and human beings are exhibit A for this. 2) human being are not conscious. c) There's a "ghost in the machine", a soul, spirit or some other kind of supernatural ghost that's not reducable to matter as we know it.

Arrangements and patterns, perhaps. The matter isn't conscious. Consiciousness is in the arrangement of matter.

> Consiciousness is in the arrangement of matter.

Right, that's what "emerge" means in option A.

https://www.researchgate.net/post/What_is_your_definition_of...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence

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