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Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018)

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Re: Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018)

#311

Post by megous »

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #143
ilovecaching wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Exactly this. If you get a laptop that a GNOME developer uses, chances are you’ll run into maybe two issues a year. But try to get GNOME to run on two 4K displays and an RTX. But here’s the thing. Linux has won. Desktop is a dying market. Linux is literally the most used operating system on phone and in the data center, which is where it counts. The DE has gotten much better transitively from all the work that’s…

> Linux is literally the most used operating system on phone... So what happens if/when Google switches to Fuchsia on their phones?

They can't. I mean they can on their phones. But that's a tiny percentage of the total Android HW. All the big SoC vendors would have to get on board and rewrite their milions of lines of their kernel code on top of Fuchsia. Android is also not just phones, but also on tablets, tv boxes, etc.

This would just cause even more fragmentation in the Android ecosystem.

Re: Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018)

#312

Post by jrockway »

JonathonW wrote: post #146
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right? The only reason user accounts exist at all in Desktop OSs is that all of them today were originally server OSs. Placing restrictions on user accounts is only useful for protecting the system from users, which is a valid concern on a network with shared resources but worse than useless on a personal desktop. Mobile OSs got this right: on a personal device, the permissions model should be applied to the applicat…

> Placing restrictions on user accounts is only useful for protecting the system from users, which is a valid concern on a network with shared resources but worse than useless on a personal desktop. True for home users; not necessarily true for corporate users-- where computers are IT-managed (i.e. "don't let end users fuck them up") and may be shared (which is highly situational-- the degree to which computers are s…

I still don't think users are the right model. For example, look at how Amazon allows multiple users to access one of their shared computers (it's a service called EC2). They don't use Linux users. You get root and the other people using that machine are protected from you.

I believe there is now an option (or maybe it's the default) in Windows to run IE under a hypervisor, to totally isolate it from the local machine. This is moving in the direction of providing something useful.

Though to be fair protecting the OS doesn't make much sense to me. I guess it's nice to guarantee that your computer will boot no matter what you do to it, but again, that is not the problem people are actually facing.

The corporate threat model involves things like protecting people from getting an email that says "click this OAuth button to give this malware access to your email". None of the critical software is running on a user's workstation, so whatever is going on there doesn't matter.

Re: Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018)

#313

Post by marcus_holmes »

robocat wrote: post #196
marcus_holmes wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a MacBook that is malfunctioning under MacOS (it's running at 60-80% CPU usage when idle, known problem, no fix available). I tried installing Linux on it, couldn't get it working at all. I have a Dell XPS15, specifically chosen because the XPS line is supposed to work well with Linux. Numerous problems, all related to drivers. But the main problem is that every time Windows updates it wipes out GRUB. I figure…

I have an XPS15 (9570 i9 with Ubuntu 18.04.01) and I have hardly run into issues and certainly not serious ones. I am swearing much less now I don't use Windows so much (even though Windows was in a VM). If your problem is dual-booting Windows, then why would you dual boot? For games, get a gamer PC. For work, use a VM. It seems a little harsh to blame Linux for Windows killing your boot ;-)

Oh I'm not blaming Linux - the problem is definitely manufacturers not testing their machines for Linux. I'm especially mad at Dell because the XPS line is supposedly "Linux friendly" and yet not. Last time I buy a Dell.

I'm travelling at the moment, so a desktop games machine is not an option. And I have to test stuff on Windows. But when the Purism turns up I'll relegate the XPS to games machine duty ;)

Re: Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018)

#314

Post by aepiepaey »

sgc wrote: post #78
jaimex2 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. You cant walk away from Windows 10 without the chance of coming back to a bricked system because it auto-updated and broke.

This issue of Windows update and other lock in trends is 80% of the reason I just (in the last month) switched to a Linux desktop. The other 20% is that the ui on Linux has finally progressed enough that I could consider it the least worst option. That is a first since I tried many times and wound up reverting to Windows. So far the only thing that really bugs me is that I have to apply fixes in the terminal. Like in…

You may want to try Filezilla or gftp for something similar to WinSCP.

Re: Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018)

#315

Post by peller »

atemerev wrote: post #225
peller wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like your expansion upon it :) I definitely do agree that "onboarding" could be improved. How I dunno. To me at least, it seems like I hear a lot of success stories from the tails of the spectrum - power users and developers on one side / the complete opposite on the other. And then for everybody in the middle, there's no other way to put it than it's almost a shit show: On the software side there a million and a h…

> stick with a non-high-DPI resolution screen Sorry, this is impossible to do once you tried HiDPI. The difference is overwhelming; I consider non-HiDPI screens an obsolete technology like CRTs. I do use Linux desktops; thankfully, the HiDPI support is much better these days than it was even 2 years ago. Both Gnome and KDE work relatively fine.

Hmm my eyes must suck haha (I'm also not sure where "HiDPI" starts - 1920x1080/14" and 4K/43" keeps me happy enough)

Glad to hear support is getting better! I guess I'd be most worried about non-GTK/QT apps

Re: Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018)

#316

Post by Krasnol »

neuronic wrote: post #309
Krasnol wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is there no such requirement for MacOS? Probably because nobody expects much from MacOS anyway? One relevant part of the Apple world is, that it works within it's narrow world of Hard- and Software. This is how they sell it. There is much much more Win-certified hardware out there. Much of it isn't used (for Win) anymore and therefore cheap as hell for excample. This is the hardware you'd expect your software t…

> One relevant part of the Apple world is, that it works You already figured out, why people enjoy using Macs. It works and I don't need to cycle through three different system compositions before graphics, audio and WiFi work.

I'm not sure if I misunderstood OPs comment or if your comment is in no way related to the topic.

But yeah, thanks for the ad. I guess... ;)

Re: Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018)

#317

Post by sl1ck731 »

fyfy18 wrote: post #207
sl1ck731 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and in the data center, which is where it counts. Do you have any stats on this? As far as I know Windows and Linux are very competitive on the server and depending on the analysis Windows comes ahead.

At least on Azure, Linux is leading as the top OS: https://www.zdnet.com/article/linux-now-dominates-azure/ I assume this is true for most other cloud providers. But that doesn't take into account all the companies running racks of Windows servers in their basements.

From that url in September it was about half Linux "but sometimes slightly over half of Azure VMs are Linux."

I'm not sure that is the win OP was looking for.

Re: Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018)

#318

Post by vlowther »

hartator wrote: post #68
gerdesj wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You clearly have never used Linux in any form. There are multiple package managers, granted. However, one strength they all share is: "you usually don't get .exe or .dmg"! Absolutely! Apps are integrated and not simply add-ons as they are in Windows or Apple land. When I want to install say libreoffice or wireshark I simply ask the system to install them. I absolutely do not browse the internet and download something…

If you need the last version of Wireshark, it’s getting complicated. And when you have a setup with Wireshark that works why update it? I am dubious that Wireshark can be an attack vector so security updates won’t be useful. Installing last versions is very straight forward when you are on Osx or Windows. You just go to the website and download it. Plus you get the original binaries not a doctored version to fit what…

You have a very limited imagination. Wireshark is regularly attacked -- it parses random data it gets off the network, therefore it can be attacked using deliberately malformed packets. See https://www.wireshark.org/security/ for more info.

Re: Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018)

#319

Post by ordu »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #145
ordu wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mobile OSs got this right: on a personal device, the permissions model should be applied to the applications. I cannot agree. If I want to run another browser instance, I cannot do that on a mobile system. Maybe it would possible to do with some support from browser's developers but with multiuser system I need no support from developers, I can create new user and run another browser that would believe that it is t…

Nothing you're describing is a problem with the model, just the implementation. All of those things are easily solvable by being able to choose how the program sees the world. You can do it today with the various namespaces in Linux.

Yes, I agree. It is problem of implementation. But nevertheless it is a problem. I didn't tried namespaces myself, but I'm pretty sure that to do in in Linux it would be harder for me to get it to work. Even if I became familiar with namespaces.

Multiuser model is settled, simple and transparent model, that just work. You have abstraction of user and abstraction of file access rights, and it is all that you need.

namespaces have no such a simple model. How can I run program from other user but give it some special rights to access this git-repo in my home directory? Do I need to write a special C-program for that? Or maybe existing tools already can be configured with some obscure xml-file? I do not know, and maybe I'm mistaken, but knowing the general laws of linux software development, I guess that the best software for it I can find is a complex overengineered corporative tool with bells and wistles, and the easiest way to use namespaces in my case is to write C-program. (If I'm mistaken, please, correct me at least by stating my mistake aloud, or better point me to a docs, please.)

And here we came into real issue. To write a good C-program for my tasks, I need to start thinking as a software designer, to invent new simple model of process separation, that allow me to solve 90% of my tasks with ease, and the rest with some headaches, but everything must be possible. The only way to do it in a week is to refuse to think, and to replicate multiuser model on top of namespaces. But I need no replica of multiuser model because I have an existing one. What the point of discarding multiuser model, just to move to another implementation of multiuser model?

The only good thing I see is a lack of need to log into a root shell to create or delete users and groups. It would be nice, but I'm not ready to spend a week to write a C program and then unknown amount of time to maintain that program, just to stop using su/sudo for such tasks.

So, I can agree that multiuser model is bad for a linux desktop. But we have no real alternative. And the mobile OS approach is the worst. It reminds me of DOS, where you can work with one process at a time, where you cannot run two copies of a program, where all is done in the single global namespace, and any process can do anything it wants. The only choice you have is "to run program or not to run".

Re: Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018)

#320

Post by hartator »

vlowther wrote: post #318
hartator wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you need the last version of Wireshark, it’s getting complicated. And when you have a setup with Wireshark that works why update it? I am dubious that Wireshark can be an attack vector so security updates won’t be useful. Installing last versions is very straight forward when you are on Osx or Windows. You just go to the website and download it. Plus you get the original binaries not a doctored version to fit what…

You have a very limited imagination. Wireshark is regularly attacked -- it parses random data it gets off the network, therefore it can be attacked using deliberately malformed packets. See https://www.wireshark.org/security/ for more info.

Every single of these vulnerabilities are crashes and infinite loops. The worst thing you can do - if I am running a 5-year old Wireshark - is to make it crash if I am visiting one of your web services. And you probably can already do that in newer versions if you dig enough.
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