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Berlin Builds Ideas to Stage a Housing Revolution

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Re: Berlin Builds Ideas to Stage a Housing Revolution

#51

Post by tjansen »

ForHackernews wrote: post #34

Surprised there's no mention yet in this thread of Land Value Tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax It's an effective way to encourage development of more housing, and reclaim some of the costs associated with rising demand for real estate.

The problem with many German cities are that they are already full. Infrastructure can't keep up with the population. The building density is so high that it's very difficult to find room for more streets or rails, more schools and other public buildings. Parks are overcrowded at weekends. I think the only solution is to get people out of the cities (or maybe build new cities).

Re: Berlin Builds Ideas to Stage a Housing Revolution

#52

Post by md5person »

alasdair_ wrote: post #35
sudoaza wrote: post #4

Yes, housing is a right not a speculation opportunity. Also there should be opportunities for people to get their own houses, like cheap credits with a monthly payment close to the rent.

>Yes, housing is a right not a speculation opportunity. Let's say I agree with this idea and let's also ignore the fact that by stating it's a right, we are implicitly stating that someone else needs to pay for it with their own money if you cannot. If housing is a right, does that necessarily mean that housing in a specific area is a right? I mean, I'd love a beachfront property in Maui but we can't all have that. I…

> "I mean, I'd love a beachfront property in Maui but we can't all have that"

The person you're replying to is basically saying: "having a place you can stay in, to keep you alive and going rather than homeless and broken, a safety net in essence - should be a right". Your response: "but we can't hand over free beachfront properties in Maui for everyone".

You're diverting the discussion ("but look at what communism did to Venezuela"). This isn't about free beachfront properties or luxury homes in Maui. This is about a single bedroom apartment with the most basic of utilities for people that wouldn't otherwise have the money or means to afford anything better: students, older folks, sick people, people that face hardships.

Re: Berlin Builds Ideas to Stage a Housing Revolution

#53

Post by moccachino »

scotty79 wrote: post #48
moccachino wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean this specifically as a solution to expensive housing, just a general solution to super disparate wealth inequality. The point is not to get more money for the state (income tax could be abolished to offset) but to put a natural negative feedback mechanism on wealth accumulation, instead of the positive feedback mechanism that exists today and makes the uber rich own the world.

I don't think that the sheer fact of some people being incredibly wealthy does much harm and it also can do some good. When the money lands in the hands of rich people it essentially leaves the economy same way as if it was just burned because they won't be giving that money back to real world economy anytime soon. It just lowers inflation a bit so everything becomes a bit cheaper than it otherwise would be. Rich peo…

Sure, I've actually got nothing against rich people or even the idea of super rich people. But the whole system is set up in such a way that if you're wealthy you own the world and have to actively screw up to not get wealthier. The system just needs a tiny self-correction mechanism.

And the problem with immense wealth is not raising inflation or anything like that, that is market stuff that will correct itself. The problem is buying your way into policy control, and people/corporations that are so powerful that not even the law dares touch them.

Re: Berlin Builds Ideas to Stage a Housing Revolution

#54

Post by icebraining »

alasdair_ wrote: post #43
mruts wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just a have a free market and abolish building codes.

> Or just a have a free market and abolish building codes. Building codes reduce transaction costs by avoiding having to inspect every single thing in a building every single time the ownership changes. Building codes massively reduce the load on the legal system that would otherwise be required from all the different people suing each other to determine fault when something inevitably breaks. Building codes reduce d…

Can we drop the tired "why don't you move to Somalia" trope? It's fallacious and it's disrespectful towards the people of Somalia.

Re: Berlin Builds Ideas to Stage a Housing Revolution

#55

Post by ForHackernews »

tjansen wrote: post #51
ForHackernews wrote: post #34

Surprised there's no mention yet in this thread of Land Value Tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax It's an effective way to encourage development of more housing, and reclaim some of the costs associated with rising demand for real estate.

The problem with many German cities are that they are already full. Infrastructure can't keep up with the population. The building density is so high that it's very difficult to find room for more streets or rails, more schools and other public buildings. Parks are overcrowded at weekends. I think the only solution is to get people out of the cities (or maybe build new cities).

I find that hard to believe. Most German cities are low-rise, not skyscrapers. Elsewhere in this thread, somebody mentioned that Berlin's population today is still below its pre-WWII high.

Re: Berlin Builds Ideas to Stage a Housing Revolution

#56

Post by icebraining »

Mirioron wrote: post #32
buro9 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Due to the limits of public transportation Fix this. People live within n time of where they want to be. If people can travel faster then the space within n time can be greater. This is the key to Tokyo and other very large metropolis cities. Have public transport offer high speed and frequent rail routes, and then many local solutions from cycling, walking, buses, trams.

> This is the key to Tokyo and other very large metropolis cities. But they also live in small apartments and homes. I'm not convinced that Tokyo is a good example here. The key to this problem is to have jobs in places that aren't large urban centers. This way the population spreads out and housing becomes more affordable.

That creates gridlock, because even if people start by working close to their home, they'll change jobs and start commuting farther, and you can't have a dense network of public transport over a huge area, so people start using cars and clogging up everything.

Re: Berlin Builds Ideas to Stage a Housing Revolution

#57

Post by pintxo »

Aeolun wrote: post #45
AndrewDucker wrote: post #7

Regulate behaviour, not ownership. If you want landlords to behave better, then rather than keeping them small, stick limits on what they can do.

Yeah, that was my impression when reading the article as well. If the problem is that new landlords are raising the rent by inordinate amounts, maybe that is what you should restrict instead. Though I’m not really opposed to breaking up big landlords either, it feels a bit disingenuous to punish people (or companies) for success.

> it feels a bit disingenuous to punish people (or companies) for success.

Have been there as well. My current position on this is, that the sources for success are hardly one dimensional. Sure hard work helps, but it also helps to happen to have good contacts, be born rich, be beautiful and tall, been grown up in the right social circles, having met the right people etc. So it‘s less punishing hard work, and more creating a balance with those less lucky.

Re: Berlin Builds Ideas to Stage a Housing Revolution

#58

Post by [deleted] »

Mirioron wrote: post #32
buro9 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Due to the limits of public transportation Fix this. People live within n time of where they want to be. If people can travel faster then the space within n time can be greater. This is the key to Tokyo and other very large metropolis cities. Have public transport offer high speed and frequent rail routes, and then many local solutions from cycling, walking, buses, trams.

> This is the key to Tokyo and other very large metropolis cities. But they also live in small apartments and homes. I'm not convinced that Tokyo is a good example here. The key to this problem is to have jobs in places that aren't large urban centers. This way the population spreads out and housing becomes more affordable.

[deleted]

Re: Berlin Builds Ideas to Stage a Housing Revolution

#59

Post by pintxo »

reallydontask wrote: post #21
Cypher wrote: post #2

Nope, because they'll just setup a load of shell companies.

I'm not saying that this would work but as a thought experiment: Any entity that buys a house zoned as residential has to pay a tax of 100% of the value of the house. Private citizens get an exemption on this tax, if their main residence of which you can only have one, and are 18 or older. CGT is 100% (Deductions for home improvements could be added) The municipality builds affordable housing The tax would probably n…

Won’t work. Due to higher property sales taxes here in Germany, any building complex worth more than a couple million is already owned by a shell company. If the building is to be sold, they sell the shell company instead to not have to pay property sales tax. Such a law would simply result in each building be wrapped in a shell company.

Re: Berlin Builds Ideas to Stage a Housing Revolution

#60

Post by areyousure »

tyfon wrote: post #44
adrianN wrote: post #9

The truth is that rents in Berlin are exceptionally cheap compared to other major cities. Try finding a flat in London or Paris for The only way to keep rents this low in the face of rising demand is public housing that is rented out below market rates to low income tenants, or via a lottery.

One of the reasons for the cheap rent is the fact that the population of Berlin is still below what it was prior to WWII. I found it quite baffling at least when I read about it. The city got hit _hard_

The population of Manhattan is also below its pre-WWII level, and much below its ~1910 peak, but rent is not cheap.
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