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A psychiatrist who didn’t believe in mental illness (2013)

aeon.co

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Re: A psychiatrist who didn’t believe in mental illness (2013)

#11
post #2

The quakers figured out that most people could recover from what are now called "psychotic breaks" by being put in a safe place ("asylum") and provided 4 meals a day [2]. Much of the current problems of Psychiatry stem from the split of neurology and psychiatry [0]. Over the last 60+ years investigators have found many physiological considerations for the so-called "mental" disorders. The core of the resistance again…

There's one critical nuance here on the physiological issue. Physiological differences imply that an issue is a product of biological, physical, or other sources outside of individual choice or mental mechanisms, but this is not necessarily so. A great example of this is the difference between amateur and master chess players. An entirely different area of the brain is used when masters analyze a position than when amateurs do. So the knee-jerk reaction there would be to say that then that's evidence that masters are just somehow physiologically different. Of course that's false. Everybody begins with the 'amateur brain'. It's just that dedicated training and development physiologically changes the individual.

So the problem here is that our ability to observe physiological differences, particularly given the development of EEG/MRI/CT/etc, has radically outpaced our ability to have any clue what they mean. The point being that just because a "condition" has a physiological manifestation in no way whatsoever then directly implies that the condition is therefore physical or can even be realistically 'treated'. For instance, we're not going to develop a drug to make you a strong chess player anytime in the foreseeable future. And while perhaps you could create a drug to make a master a weak player again, it would almost certainly be little more than a glorified lobotomy.

Re: A psychiatrist who didn’t believe in mental illness (2013)

#12
post #8
post #6

Of course the #hustle obsessed hacker news crowd would love this title. "Mental illness is fake! Mentally different people are just whiny and inferior, not a legitimate illness. Depressed people need to just stop it." What a load of crap. This article does a poor job of laying out Szasz's actual beliefs. Szasz sounds like a right-wing wonk and little else. He has since been proven completely wrong in the 50 years sin…

Can you please stop posting rants to HN? They're not what this site is for, and you've done it a lot, unfortunately. Your non-rant comments are fine. HN is for intellectual curiosity—see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html .

Personally I read their comment as impassioned rather than ranting.

Re: A psychiatrist who didn’t believe in mental illness (2013)

#13
post #3

Szasz's opinions on addiction and 'the therapeutic state' were some of the most clear of any from the field of psychiatry I've heard yet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Szasz#Szasz's_main_argu...

This is fine as far as it goes, but some psychotic people really are dangerous. A percentage become murderous and violent, and criticising the admittedly poor state of psychiatric understanding doesn't make them less likely to harm themselves or others.

Of course the problem is related to wider social issues about permissive violence. If one person murders another because of their delusions, it's a crime and a medical failure. If an entire country declares war on another for similar reasons we assume we're in the realm of politics and history, not mass mental illness.

We're far too harsh on individuals and far too lenient on mass systems of thought and belief that have horrific outcomes.

Re: A psychiatrist who didn’t believe in mental illness (2013)

#14
It's a pretty simple equation, and you feel the business end of it when you question a medical doctor regarding something as simple as an antibiotics prescription.

Fields are designed to protect the degreed professional. The words are crafted as weapons forged in the defense of each thesis.

Everything you confront is the product of some long-dead intellectual chess match conducted in an ivory tower, and from that moment forward concepts are, by turns, weaponized.

This principle extends to all fields, economics, sociology, psychology, biology, chemistry, physics, math. Don't believe me? Try on the "divide by zero" argument for size.

It's just notation, to communicate expressions, that relay ideas.

If you were to have nothing, and hypothetically cut nothing into a number of parts, you'd still have nothing. If you have something, and divide it into zero parts, then that too, is nothing.

But people have a professional stake in fighting such compromises. Having won an argument in the past means their reputation rests on defending that stance until they finally die and get out of the way.

It's pretty easy to let an expression that communicates division with zero exist. But because we have an academic norm standing in the way, the conversation of whether or not we should serves better to reveal the brainwashed drones, parroting their instructors until death.

Re: A psychiatrist who didn’t believe in mental illness (2013)

#15
post #8
post #6

Of course the #hustle obsessed hacker news crowd would love this title. "Mental illness is fake! Mentally different people are just whiny and inferior, not a legitimate illness. Depressed people need to just stop it." What a load of crap. This article does a poor job of laying out Szasz's actual beliefs. Szasz sounds like a right-wing wonk and little else. He has since been proven completely wrong in the 50 years sin…

Can you please stop posting rants to HN? They're not what this site is for, and you've done it a lot, unfortunately. Your non-rant comments are fine. HN is for intellectual curiosity—see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html .

I have read this comment and I perceive it as a well-argumented, although may be a little bit emotional, critique. It has served my intellectual curiosity. If it had been on a topic that HN has a different consensus (like climate change) it still could've been the top comment, despite the tone.

Re: A psychiatrist who didn’t believe in mental illness (2013)

#16
post #3

Szasz's opinions on addiction and 'the therapeutic state' were some of the most clear of any from the field of psychiatry I've heard yet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Szasz#Szasz's_main_argu...

This is fine as far as it goes, but some psychotic people really are dangerous. A percentage become murderous and violent, and criticising the admittedly poor state of psychiatric understanding doesn't make them less likely to harm themselves or others. Of course the problem is related to wider social issues about permissive violence. If one person murders another because of their delusions, it's a crime and a medica…

>This is fine as far as it goes, but some psychotic people really are dangerous. A percentage become murderous and violent

Sure, but then again most non-psychotic people are as well. It's not like the majority of murders is done by psychotic people.

Re: A psychiatrist who didn’t believe in mental illness (2013)

#17
post #11
post #2

The quakers figured out that most people could recover from what are now called "psychotic breaks" by being put in a safe place ("asylum") and provided 4 meals a day [2]. Much of the current problems of Psychiatry stem from the split of neurology and psychiatry [0]. Over the last 60+ years investigators have found many physiological considerations for the so-called "mental" disorders. The core of the resistance again…

There's one critical nuance here on the physiological issue. Physiological differences imply that an issue is a product of biological, physical, or other sources outside of individual choice or mental mechanisms, but this is not necessarily so. A great example of this is the difference between amateur and master chess players. An entirely different area of the brain is used when masters analyze a position than when a…

Got a link (or name) for that chess brain mapping study? Sounds interesting?

(sorry, tangent)

Re: A psychiatrist who didn’t believe in mental illness (2013)

#18
The more I read of psychiatry makes me lean towards the majority of it being pseudoscience. Finances play the most important role in suicidal ideation but nothing is ever done for the people suffering from suicide attempts besides placing them in a facility for an extended period and medicating them. Some of the drugs have even been shown to induce gambling. How in the world does someone escape a life where all the cards are dealt against them is unknown to me. In this world you spend more money when poor to live healthy than if starting out rich and it’s harder to save or increase your holdings while poor. Stress is definitely the deciding factor in if a person can stay happy and happiness is the only factor to really care about; besides physical health but they come hand in hand. I think the field is improving but I have a bias by living in a progressive city where the old beliefs are highly questioned and rarely followed. I think psychiatry will go down in history next to the holocaust. Too many people were ruined compared to being helped.

Re: A psychiatrist who didn’t believe in mental illness (2013)

#19
Szasz's "The Myth of Mental Illness" is one of those works which is completely and utterly misinterpreted simply because of the title.

I don't have the book available at the moment, but in the introduction he says something to the effect of "I don't regret writing this book, but I regret calling it what I did, because people judge it without reading it."

The gut-reaction to such a title is to think the writer is saying "depression doesn't exist" or "schizophrenia doesn't exist" or "manic depressives are lying."

This isn't what he says in the book at all. Rather, his argument is more along the lines of:

1. The word "illness" should be used to represent a cause-- and resolving the cause should cure the illness. Cancer, the flu, hyperparathyroidism--all map to causes.

2. The conditions which we call mental illness don't have a knowable cause. They are symptoms which we pattern match against.

3. Corollary: Illnesses should be hypothetically curable. There may be a cure for cancer. But there cannot be a "cure" for most "mental illnesses" because there is no shared, physical cause that underlies say, all cases of "bipolar disorder".

3. So we shouldn't call them "illnesses". We should call them something else.

Unfortunately that's about as much as I remember of his argument, but it's very different than the common accusation... And it also strikes me as accurate.

The problem with naming things is that it makes them real. I think often the hacker news crowd forgets how ill-informed most of the world is, and the degree to which people crave certainty.

When a person is told by a psychiatrists "Your 8 year has depression so we'll put her on X pill" or "You have bipolar type 2, so I recommend Y medicine", it has a certain finality.

Most people don't think "The doctor is telling me that my behavior matches some patterns. That is it. She does not know why, and we may never know why, there may not even be a reason why. So we should think about what we can do to mitigate this."

No. The we think "I've been diagnosed with a disease. (Sorry I'm being an a-hole|I won't go to your party|didn't get out of bed), I suffer from bipolar and there's no cure".

Re: A psychiatrist who didn’t believe in mental illness (2013)

#20
post #3

Szasz's opinions on addiction and 'the therapeutic state' were some of the most clear of any from the field of psychiatry I've heard yet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Szasz#Szasz's_main_argu...

This is fine as far as it goes, but some psychotic people really are dangerous. A percentage become murderous and violent, and criticising the admittedly poor state of psychiatric understanding doesn't make them less likely to harm themselves or others. Of course the problem is related to wider social issues about permissive violence. If one person murders another because of their delusions, it's a crime and a medica…

>If one person murders another because of their delusions, it's a crime and a medical failure. If an entire country declares war on another for similar reasons we assume we're in the realm of politics and history, not mass mental illness.

That's because mental illness diagnosis is subjective and authoritarian.

For example, runaway slaves in the US were diagnosed with drapetomania, and anti-war acitivists who smoked marijuana were diagnosed with schizophrenia.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drapetomania

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