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Is Matter Conscious? (2017)

nautil.us

161–170 of 280 posts

Re: Is Matter Conscious? (2017)

#161

Panpsychism is exciting. But there are two problems in it. One is the combination problem: what sort of collection of atoms are conscious and what are not. If you propose then that only agents or complex systems are conscious, you are faced with the second problem: the boundary condition. What do you call an agent, and why? I’m ultimately hopeful that subjective experience will come to be seen as something fundamenta…

Your use of the term agent is I think telling. An agent is something that acts, and in this context I think it's fair to extend it to say that it acts consciously, yet under panpsychism all these conscious particles are not agents in any active sense at all. Their ‘awareness’ is a hidden variable with no external consequences, because all of their interactions are deterministic as described by physics. A 'conscious' photon doesn't decide to interact with an atom, or choose to be reflected or not by a semi-mirrored surface.

But if that is so, how can assemblies of such particles form any kind of aggregate consciousness? How can the conscious experiences coalesce if they cannot interact? If the interactions of the particles are described only by physics, as seems to be the case, then the fact they are individually conscious in some sense is irrelevant because that can have no consequences for the behaviour or even the ‘experience’ of the assembly. Imagining otherwise is to invoke some sort of psychic or spiritual connection, but then if that connection has any physical consequences at all then it can’t really in any meaningful way be separate from physics. If it's not separate, then it's measurable and we should be able to make falsifiable claims about it and tests for it.

So I don’t see how this flavour of panpsychism (dual aspect monism) can actually help illuminate or resolve the problem of _our_ consciousness at all, or any of the philosophical problems and questions associated with it, even in principle.

Re: Is Matter Conscious? (2017)

#162
post #3

>Is matter conscious Not gonna read that. No. No, matter is not conscious. Go home nautil.us, you’re drunk.

Are you not made of matter? Or are you not conscious?

Toast is made of matter. You are made of matter. Therefore, you are toast.

Re: Is Matter Conscious? (2017)

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always been confused that due to time dilation, everything from the perspective of a photon happens all at once, yet there is an order. If time is effectively dilated to the point that time has stopped for the photon, what happens in the year of travel over a light year of distance?

It can’t be stated enough: photons don’t have a perspective. Talking about what a photon “sees” is a non-starter. It’s also important to note that light follows null geodesics in spacetime, and while on paper that can look like no time elapses between emission and absorption, it still can’t tell us what it would “be like” to be a photon. If you want to go in that direction though, then this could help. As you approac…

> Talking about what a photon "sees" is a non-starter

In QED or other photon-containing QFTs like the Standard Model, it is not only a "starter", it is essentially the point of the thing. Surely the photon "sees" the electron in a Compton scattering?

Photons obey the spin statistics for massless gauge bosons, so they can pile up at one point in spacetime. Equivalently, null geodesics can intersect. There can be a spacetime-point occupied by a pair of photons while the rest of spacetime is filled with points where they are occupied by only one (or neither).

(Indeed, the Penrose theorem arises because null geodesics, and photons travelling on them, can collide and stay collided, so for this and other reasons there may be multiple points in spacetime occupied by both of our pair of photons.)

One must be able to understand that for a photon there may be an early/late distinction -- either it is in a gravitational singularity or it isn't; either it is occupying a point with the other of our pair of photons or it isn't; either it's scattering or isn't. Following the photon and thinking about what it experiences, we can't use proper time, since it will be identical (practically[1]) everywhere along its path; likewise, spacetime intervals for all photons travelling on null geodesics are zero. The need for this understanding increases with photon interactions with charged matter: a pair of photons from different quasars arriving at a pair of detectors here tells us something about the location in spacetime of the quasar and about the metric expansion of space. Using cosmological coordinates, for each of the pair there is a _time_ before which no point in space contains it, and a time when they arrive at a detector on or around Earth. Given that each of the pair is from a different quasar, generally the emission time will be different. Moreover, at emission the wavelength of the photon will be shorter, and it will be longer at later times, right up to detection.

Proper time (and proper length for wavelength) makes a mess of this in general, but we do not need to parameterize a non-timelike geodesic with proper time. Instead, for a null geodeseic, we use an affine parameter and consider its properties at each value of the affine parameter.

For each of our quasar photons, at different affine parameter values the photon has a different energy-momentum. For the Minkowski vacuum photons in the first paragraph above, for a given affine parameter value, one photon is in vacuum or it is at the same point as the other photon. For accuracy, when we are dealing with physical photons, the stress-energy-momentum tensor must encode this. As we get away from simple Minkowski vacuum, we want all the tensor-fields to be accurate.

We can recast your second paragraph's second sentence as taking the limit of the geodesic in which it becomes null, parameterizing by an un-rescaled extremized proper time. We can simply rescale so that we always have a different value at each point on the geodesic as we take this limit. Indeed, we can substitute any monotonic function of spacetime position on the geodesic and get a way to compare field-properties. For a timelike geodesic, proper time tends to be a "good" choice. The affine parameter, the unique monotonic function that satisfies the geodesic equation, tends to be a "good" choice for a null geodesic, in particular because it preserves the tangent vectors under parallel transport.

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[1] Photons generally do not move at c in a medium, and one can describe this in a variety of equivalent ways, some of which demote a photon from a null curve to a timelike one while interacting with the bulk of the medium. There are serious proposals to study laboratory ultra-slow light in the context of General Relativity. From a theoretical perspective, Gordon in 1923 outlined an https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_metric in which light follows different geodesics from the null geodesics sourced by the metric tensor, and there are various approaches to extending this to media with nonnegligible dispersion. In this sort of approach, a photon or a pulse of classical light can have a pretty conventional proper time.

Re: Is Matter Conscious? (2017)

#164
post #148
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except you were not replying to the nautilus article, you were replying to the one i posted by Grosz. You might like to have a read of it, it does not makes the claims you are suggesting.

> by Grosz. You might like to have a read of it, it does not makes the claims you are suggesting. I have read it. That article cites others, so you can wiggle out that it doesn't make claims alone, but what is inside is the same worthless "idea": "sub-atomic particles have a primary consciousness, an immediate self-perception or self-survey, an overflight without distance, immediately in touch with itself and its Umw…

1. I was specifically replying to the flagged poster (flagged for good reason as they are being derisive without warrant), who let on that they did not actually mean to reply to my post.

2. Not wiggling, fuck i am not saying anything at all apart from that it does not make the claims they were suggesting—which it does not. I just said I liked the article.

I like that it navigates a coherent path through a concept which is often quite.. far fetched. Gives framework around how to see consciousness differently without making any claims about consciousness than that which is observed.

But seriously, the idea that you must take on the entirety of a cannon if you make reference to it (even when expressly arguing against it) is, how shall I put this nicely.. just fucking ridiculous.

3. You seem to suggest we should rest on our current conceptual understanding of various types of consciousness rather than trying to figure out how break them down into their constituent parts. Very scientific.

>to sound more clever

Really, why the snark? seems you don't understand how philosophy (or language for that matter works). The terms are used to maintain a meaning explained and argued previously, and to avoid common language meanings unrelated to the concept. What you said would be like chiding a mathematician for using esoteric terms like 'imaginary numbers'.

edit: In the best humor, despite my better judgement, edited structure for clarity.

Re: Is Matter Conscious? (2017)

#165
post #164
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> by Grosz. You might like to have a read of it, it does not makes the claims you are suggesting. I have read it. That article cites others, so you can wiggle out that it doesn't make claims alone, but what is inside is the same worthless "idea": "sub-atomic particles have a primary consciousness, an immediate self-perception or self-survey, an overflight without distance, immediately in touch with itself and its Umw…

1. I was specifically replying to the flagged poster (flagged for good reason as they are being derisive without warrant), who let on that they did not actually mean to reply to my post. 2. Not wiggling, fuck i am not saying anything at all apart from that it does not make the claims they were suggesting—which it does not. I just said I liked the article. I like that it navigates a coherent path through a concept whi…

I'm sorry your response is so incoherent that I can't, even though I wish, contribute any more to this thread of the discussion.

Re: Is Matter Conscious? (2017)

#167
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think panpsychism argues that everything is conscious, at all levels, simultaneously. There are no boundaries. What you experience as a boundary is just the limit of your awareness. Just as you don't consciously beat your heart or heal your wounds. And if you think about it a lot it's tough to really tell where your own boundary brain/body ends and the environment begins. I like the panpsychism stuff because it res…

Like most philosophies, pansychism has multiple flavours. To me, the combination problem is concrete. The physical location of my awareness seems to be inside the head and not my hand, even though both are made of atoms. ‘Everything is conscious’ fails to account for that.

The physical awareness of the self used to be in the chest during the centuries where people thought the brain is just a blood-cooling organ.

Ask some small children where their self is, and some of those who haven't be told much about the brain will point to the chest or another location.

Re: Is Matter Conscious? (2017)

#169
post #88

Panpsychism is exciting. But there are two problems in it. One is the combination problem: what sort of collection of atoms are conscious and what are not. If you propose then that only agents or complex systems are conscious, you are faced with the second problem: the boundary condition. What do you call an agent, and why? I’m ultimately hopeful that subjective experience will come to be seen as something fundamenta…

I think panpsychism argues that everything is conscious, at all levels, simultaneously. There are no boundaries. What you experience as a boundary is just the limit of your awareness. Just as you don't consciously beat your heart or heal your wounds. And if you think about it a lot it's tough to really tell where your own boundary brain/body ends and the environment begins. I like the panpsychism stuff because it res…

If these conscious experiences of particles are entirely encapsulated within them, and not manifested in their external behaviour, then I don't see how any form of aggregate consciousnesses could form. If the atoms of my body are conscious, what does that have to do with the consciousness of my brain? It can only be relevant if those consciousnesses interact or merge or coalesce in some way, and how can they do that without interacting beyond the interactions described by physics?

Clearly my consciousness has physical consequences. I am an active agent and act consciously. Therefore if my consciousness is composed of these, then the consciousness of those particles must have physical, measurable consequences that should be testable.

The fact that this line of reasoning is entirely absent from any of these philosophical ruminations is I think telling.

Re: Is Matter Conscious? (2017)

#170
post #165
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. I was specifically replying to the flagged poster (flagged for good reason as they are being derisive without warrant), who let on that they did not actually mean to reply to my post. 2. Not wiggling, fuck i am not saying anything at all apart from that it does not make the claims they were suggesting—which it does not. I just said I liked the article. I like that it navigates a coherent path through a concept whi…

I'm sorry your response is so incoherent that I can't, even though I wish, contribute any more to this thread of the discussion.

I'm sorry you cannot read, or argue in good faith.
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