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Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

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Re: Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

#511

Post by softshellack »

rst wrote: post #233
xoa wrote: post #33

It's of course impossible not to respect Linus' opinion and first hand experience in this space, but doesn't this whole post completely ignore the 100 ton blue whale in the room? Namely smartphones . That's an entire enormous segment of the industry and it's nearly 100% (or entirely 100%?) literally develop-on-x86-deploy-on-ARM. Smartphones also fit > "This isn't rocket science. This isn't some made up story. This is…

He's also apparently assuming that ARM-based Chromebooks will never be a useful developer environment. I wouldn't take that bet -- a lot of the newer ones will support Linux VMs out of the box well enough to support at least a half-decent development environment (via Crostini). (You can get a Pixelbook with 8GB RAM and a 512GB SSD, if you're wondering about storage space. And while Crostini still has issues with in-V…

Pixelbook is not ARM. There are lesser-powered, arm-based, crostini-enabled chromebooks. But nothing a developer would want to use yet.

Re: Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

#512

Post by timmytokyo »

karakanb wrote: post #507
Slartie wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

x86 Docker containers will not run on ARM, even if you install Docker for ARM. Docker is an entirely useless layer to support cross-architecture deployment. Heck, even full-blown VMs (the real ones, that docker partially replaced) are mostly useless, for performance reasons.

The question was not specifically around Docker. What I wonder is, why wouldn't there be a seperate layer that abstracts away these platform differences, just like Docker did for operating systems?

Like the operating system?

Re: Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

#513

Post by wmu »

nly wrote: post #422
gwbas1c wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And, most importantly: Many server-side languages don't compile to x86 / x64! They are either interpreted, or compile to bytecode! And speaking of x64... > It's why x86 won. Do you really think the world has changed radically? No, x86 is loosing to x64. And at some point another instruction set will supplant x64.

x86 didn't "lose" to x86-64, it just extended the 20 year compatibility story that goes all the way back to the 386. Intel tried "another instruction set" (Itanium) and nearly lost the market to AMD (AMD64)

Intel also had KNC instruction set (AVX512-like) on Xeon Phi (these CPUs available on PCI cards). They abandoned it in favour of good old x86. One of important factors was the difficulties related to tooling, especially necessity of cross-compilation.

Re: Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

#514

Post by MikusR »

ferongr wrote: post #501
clouddrover wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple's A12X CPU is competitive with the Intel CPUs they're currently using in their laptops: https://venturebeat.com/2018/11/01/ipad-pro-a12x-benchmarks-... You'll probably be able to run Windows 10 on a future Apple ARM-based laptop, though I imagine the problem will be getting Windows drivers for the GPU.

Lol at using Geekbench to compare different architectures.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/13392/the-iphone-xs-xs-max-re...

Re: Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

#515

Post by mariuolo »

copperx wrote: post #503
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would expect them to pursue a dual processor strategy first. The bulk of the OS can run on ARM and power apps can remain on x86.

I can't imagine that's good for battery life.

Or price.

Re: Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

#516

Post by qes »

matchagaucho wrote: post #472
chmod775 wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is so utterly untrue and directly related to what Linus was talking about. Those bare-metal servers are basically 1:1 what you are developing on. I can install an instance of my application on them in minutes. It's AWS that takes significantly more time to set up and learn . Most people using AWS are spending big bucks on an 'automatically scaling' architecture (that never just works ) that will cost them many t…

8 servers fixed capex is not comparable to the opex of 8 peak servers. If bandwidth is your highest cost, that's a completely separate problem that likely requires CDN. Neither x86 or ARM is going to reduce that cost.

My situation is similar to what chmod775 describes.

We serve 200+ TB/month, and no we didn't just forget to use a CDN ◔_◔ Those cost money, too.

For us, cloud is about double - $10k/month more - than dedicated boxes in a data center. I've run the same system in both types of environments for years at a time.

For us, cloud is basically burning money for a little bit of additional safety net and easy access to additional services that don't offer enough advantage over the basics to be worth taking on the extra service dependency. It's also occasional failures behind black boxes that you can't even began to diagnose without a standing support contract that costs hundreds or more a month. Super fun.

High bandwidth and steady compute needs is not generally a good fit for cloud services.

Re: Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

#517

Post by Chyzwar »

think_free wrote: post #484
antirez wrote: post #145

It's extremely hard to agree with Linus on that. One problem in his argument is that he believes that everybody has a kernel hacker mindset: most today's developers don't care about environment reproducibility at architecture level. The second problem is that he believes that every kind of development is as platform sensitive as kernel hacking, and he even makes the example of Perl scripts. The reality is that one ye…

"I often find black-and-white people a bit stupid, truth be told" - Linus Torvalds, 2005 I think maybe Linus T. is getting old, out of touch, and closed-minded, and I think we should be open to change and care less about every random thought he blows off. Quote source: https://www.linux.com/news/linus-compares-linux-and-bsds

he at least he does not create an accounts to shit on someone.

Re: Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

#519

Post by yoz-y »

cthalupa wrote: post #253
numbsafari wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intel is already anticipating Apple moving to ARM for “desktop”. Chromebooks already run a mix. He’ll be right until he is wrong.

He'll still be right, even then. His core argument is that until there are ARM computers that developers are working on in some real quantity, ARM in the server space has no chance. If that happens, then by his argument they now have a chance.

It seems that the title gives a different meaning to the words he actually said.

Re: Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

#520

Post by karakanb »

timmytokyo wrote: post #512
karakanb wrote: post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question was not specifically around Docker. What I wonder is, why wouldn't there be a seperate layer that abstracts away these platform differences, just like Docker did for operating systems?

Like the operating system?

Exactly, but I am not well-versed about the challanges and potential difference that might surface in kernel level and since Linus thinks it is not applicable, I was wondering if there is / would be an equivalent in the user space that would allow reproducibility for different architectures, something like architecture independent containers maybe. I would like to believe that we have come to a position where we can consider the application and platform as completely independent entities, which would eliminate these concerns regarding dev/prod parity possibly.

All these questions are mostly out of my ignorance though, I am trying to understand why the architecture change would require a huge effort as long as the underlying stuff is well abstracted.

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