Trolls Are Real • Hacker News Board

Re: Trolls Are Real

#51

Post by amelius » Sat, Feb 23, 2019, 5:38 PM UTC

kurthr wrote: post #25

amelius wrote: post #2

The patent system was broken from the start. The incentives are all wrong, as USPTO officers get paid more, the more patents they approve. It's like paying fishermen for the fish they didn't catch.

Well, to be fair they also get paid for each patent they reject... so like a fisherman who gets paid each time he casts a line, they get paid for office actions. Of course there are complexities to both the approvals and rejections (office actions), which have to be justified and potential reviews by other examiners. So it may be broken, but not the way you imply.

After a patent is approved, there will be more fees down the line, such as for amending or maintaining the patent. Therefore, the USPTO will make more money from an approved patent than a rejected patent.

Re: Trolls Are Real

#52

Post by greglindahl » Sat, Feb 23, 2019, 5:55 PM UTC

z3t4 wrote: post #8

Patents are meant to protect you from bigger companies muscling you out. They have however found a loophole by acquiring as many patents as possible hoping that will scare you. That strategy however doesnt help against trolls. So they lobby to weaken the patent system to make it easier to steal ideas from small startups.

Patents aren't "meant to protect you from bigger companies muscling you out".

That's a common story told to justify them, but US patents are meant to do what the US Constitution says about them: “To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries.”

Many people who do small startups think patents are a net negative for small startups.

Re: Trolls Are Real

#53

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Feb 23, 2019, 6:21 PM UTC

dahart wrote: post #48

amelius wrote: post #2

The patent system was broken from the start. The incentives are all wrong, as USPTO officers get paid more, the more patents they approve. It's like paying fishermen for the fish they didn't catch.

Do you have a source for what the incentives are and how patent examiners are being paid? Do you know for a fact that it's per-approval, rather than per-application, or salaried with small commissions, or plain salaried? Assuming you're right, how would you fix the incentives?

[deleted]

Re: Trolls Are Real

#54

Post by lostlogin » Sat, Feb 23, 2019, 6:23 PM UTC

CalChris wrote: post #41

hownottowrite wrote: post #11

Reference: Speech given by USPTO Director Andre Iancu to the Eastern District of Texas Bar Association https://www.ipwatchdog.com/2018/10/19/iancu-risk-takers-pate...

That Iancu would travel to the Eastern District of Texas to deliver that speech amounts to trolling of a different variety.

Related: Apple closing physical stores to avoid litigation in the district, thread below. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19226355

Re: Trolls Are Real

#55

Post by whataboutthateh » Sat, Feb 23, 2019, 6:24 PM UTC

leesalminen wrote: post #47

close04 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We are all responsible for breaking our country. Every. Single. One. Of. Us. That's not how it works. Unless all Americans are responsible for an American barn catching fire because the American owner tossed an American cigarette butt inside. No, politics get ruined by politicians. And politicians are put there by some of the people. Not all of the people. I know you'd like to lessen the burden on your shoulders an…

So what you’re saying is that all problems in our country are caused by the current administration and that democrats have never done anything detrimental to the country? It would seem to me that you’re the one assigning blame away from yourself. I blame all of us equally for allowing us to get to where we are today. I’m equally unimpressed with this administration as the last.

[flagged]

Re: Trolls Are Real

#56

Post by rayiner » Sat, Feb 23, 2019, 6:34 PM UTC

amelius wrote: post #2

The patent system was broken from the start. The incentives are all wrong, as USPTO officers get paid more, the more patents they approve. It's like paying fishermen for the fish they didn't catch.

That’s not true. Examiners are in a GS scale, with overtime pay and a small bonus, none of which are based on how many patents they approve.

Re: Trolls Are Real

#57

Post by rayiner » Sat, Feb 23, 2019, 6:34 PM UTC

amelius wrote: post #51

kurthr wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, to be fair they also get paid for each patent they reject... so like a fisherman who gets paid each time he casts a line, they get paid for office actions. Of course there are complexities to both the approvals and rejections (office actions), which have to be justified and potential reviews by other examiners. So it may be broken, but not the way you imply.

After a patent is approved, there will be more fees down the line, such as for amending or maintaining the patent. Therefore, the USPTO will make more money from an approved patent than a rejected patent.

But the examiner doesn’t get that money, like you implied.

Re: Trolls Are Real

#58

Post by jessaustin » Sat, Feb 23, 2019, 6:39 PM UTC

leesalminen wrote: post #43

jessaustin wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on dude, try to write things that might be believed. Limbaugh has been bragging for decades about inventing this clever phrase that annoys Democratics.

[flagged]

I'm an anarchist who listens to both, albeit not exclusively. They both have their helpings of BS, but they both entertain me. I don't particularly care whether you've ever listened to Limbaugh, but I know which way I'd bet...

"Conservatives" complaining about "stereotyping" somehow seem more pathetic than liberals doing the same. Don't assume anyone cares about your feelings. Weren't you broadly opining about "sticks and stones" in the immediately preceding post?

Re: Trolls Are Real

#59

Post by rayiner » Sat, Feb 23, 2019, 6:43 PM UTC

Trolls are definitely real, and we need reforms, particularly at the PTO, to cut down on the number of bad patents. At the same time, there are companies who make lots of money free riding on other peoples’ IP. And that’s also a huge problem. For example, YouTube became a multi-billion business ripping off content companies. YouTube doesn’t create a product-it’s just a middle man for content produced by other people. YouTube makes more money by weakening the protections available to content producers (and unsurprisingly Google is at the forefront for watering down copyright law). Huawei built a business ripping off the designs of Cisco and Juniper, and now are using their leverage to try and compete with those companies in the US.

That problem becomes particularly acute as the US switches more to producing IP. The EFF’s myopia is to fail to realize that a balance needs to be struck. A world where you can release a chip or a drug or a jet engine and have a Chinese company immediately copy it and sell a competitor at a fraction of the price with no consequences is one that’s not good for Silicon Valley in the long run. Our competitors overseas can recreate YouTube much more easily than they can recreate Hollywood. India still hasn’t been able to create a jet engine domestically, even though HUL has been able to design and manufacture most of the rest of a jet fighter.

Re: Trolls Are Real

#60

Post by amelius » Sat, Feb 23, 2019, 6:54 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #56

amelius wrote: post #2

The patent system was broken from the start. The incentives are all wrong, as USPTO officers get paid more, the more patents they approve. It's like paying fishermen for the fish they didn't catch.

That’s not true. Examiners are in a GS scale, with overtime pay and a small bonus, none of which are based on how many patents they approve.

True, but whether the examiners or the USPTO get that money is totally beside the point.