Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space • Hacker News Board

Re: Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

#501

Post by ferongr » Sat, Feb 23, 2019, 2:02 PM UTC

clouddrover wrote: post #63

deng wrote: post #25

He is right. I'm still waiting for that ARM-based laptop with awesome battery life, which can run a proper OS with good speed and hence is not just a toy. Apple switching to ARM won't make much difference since I gather it will only run OSX, which will probably be pretty much iOS at that time. Yes, you will probably be able to run Linux on that thing, but almost nobody will actually do it because it makes much more s…

Apple's A12X CPU is competitive with the Intel CPUs they're currently using in their laptops: https://venturebeat.com/2018/11/01/ipad-pro-a12x-benchmarks-... You'll probably be able to run Windows 10 on a future Apple ARM-based laptop, though I imagine the problem will be getting Windows drivers for the GPU.

Lol at using Geekbench to compare different architectures.

Re: Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

#502

Post by acqq » Sat, Feb 23, 2019, 2:02 PM UTC

Androider wrote: post #321

ams6110 wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> now your whole distro is different than your development machine Can you not develop on an ARM emulator? Or just buy an ARM machine for dev work?

Of course I can, but the question is why would go out of my way to do any of that? I was interested in trying the state of server-side ARM for my mostly-interpreted language, and I pretty much immediately found that it doesn't Just Work. I had a vision of spending many hours searching, creating and +1:ing GitHub issues and tracking discussions around "why package X doesn't work on ARM" and the developers saying at be…

> if ARM development machines become mainstream by way of Apple, then the calculation changes completely.

That's the biggest chance for ARM: having the notebooks/desktops that are good or even better for most potential users.

Re: Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

#503

Post by copperx » Sat, Feb 23, 2019, 3:51 PM UTC

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #377

mullingitover wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I consider myself a pretty average Mac user, and I've already been turned off by the last couple rounds of Macs that Apple has shipped. Messing up the one remaining upside, x86 compatibility, would be be the straw that broke the camel's back. They still only have single digit market share in desktop computing, this could be the death blow for their platform.

I would expect them to pursue a dual processor strategy first. The bulk of the OS can run on ARM and power apps can remain on x86.

I can't imagine that's good for battery life.

Re: Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

#504

Post by copperx » Sat, Feb 23, 2019, 4:26 PM UTC

jecxjo wrote: post #391

ozim wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have production experience with ARM unfortunately but Raspberry Pi is huge... Linux on desktop sucks if you have any laptop or something like this, but specific hardware just like RPi, everything works for my needs. I have node.js, .net core, python and loads of software that just works for me on ARM. Let alone I have Synology with ARM processor. Making servers is a lot easier than making consumer grade lapto…

I ran Pis at home for a bunch of services and I agree it did a great job. But when you put actual loads on it the device craters because they are so under powered. This is where THE issue is going to be. To get speeds you expect out of server hardware its not just about making a 64 core ARM. Single Core ARM vs Single Core x86 has an obvious winner. So you need to make node and .net core and python and everyone else r…

Why are you declaring winners when you're comparing RPis to full powered x86 CPUs?

RPis are built to a price and don't have the best CPUs that ARM can offer. A better comparison would be Apple's A chips.

Re: Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

#505

Post by copperx » Sat, Feb 23, 2019, 4:29 PM UTC

acqq wrote: post #502

Androider wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course I can, but the question is why would go out of my way to do any of that? I was interested in trying the state of server-side ARM for my mostly-interpreted language, and I pretty much immediately found that it doesn't Just Work. I had a vision of spending many hours searching, creating and +1:ing GitHub issues and tracking discussions around "why package X doesn't work on ARM" and the developers saying at be…

> if ARM development machines become mainstream by way of Apple, then the calculation changes completely. That's the biggest chance for ARM: having the notebooks/desktops that are good or even better for most potential users.

Chance for ARM? How can you say that with a straight face when ARM is the undisputed winner in the greatest market of all.

Re: Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

#506

Post by copperx » Sat, Feb 23, 2019, 4:43 PM UTC

mark-r wrote: post #249

antirez wrote: post #145

It's extremely hard to agree with Linus on that. One problem in his argument is that he believes that everybody has a kernel hacker mindset: most today's developers don't care about environment reproducibility at architecture level. The second problem is that he believes that every kind of development is as platform sensitive as kernel hacking, and he even makes the example of Perl scripts. The reality is that one ye…

Don't you see that his answer has nothing to do with a hacker mindset? It's an assertion that making your development and production environments as close as possible will save you from unexpected grief, coupled with an observation that this has driven server architectures historically. Especially with subtle problems like performance issues. I find it a very sensible conclusion. Of course it didn't hurt that x86 qui…

Well, unless you're hacking on kernel code, making your production environment exactly as your development one is trivial. Just develop remotely. This isn't a part of Linus's calculus because, for him, developing remotely is unthinkable.

Re: Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

#507

Post by karakanb » Sat, Feb 23, 2019, 4:47 PM UTC

Slartie wrote: post #487

karakanb wrote: post #444

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this whole dev-prod hardware parity argument contradict with the rise of Docker? I don't know much about ARM or CPU architectures in general, but I have never heard companies testing their Dockerized applications with Docker on different CPU architectures just to make sure that the application works as expected; it can be because everything is on x86 already, but at this point Dock…

x86 Docker containers will not run on ARM, even if you install Docker for ARM. Docker is an entirely useless layer to support cross-architecture deployment. Heck, even full-blown VMs (the real ones, that docker partially replaced) are mostly useless, for performance reasons.

The question was not specifically around Docker. What I wonder is, why wouldn't there be a seperate layer that abstracts away these platform differences, just like Docker did for operating systems?

Re: Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

#508

Post by copperx » Sat, Feb 23, 2019, 4:48 PM UTC

bryanlarsen wrote: post #219

sangnoir wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you are not really disagreeing with Linus - he's not saying ARM is not viable - he is saying it will not win . With your current setup (cross-compiling), are your ARM executables more performant than x86? Or do they have any other advantage at all over x86? Without an advantage, ARM can't possibly win. Having a cheap, viable ARM-native development platform drastically increases the chances of ARM-only k…

He's not saying it won't win, either. He's just saying that for it to win, it needs a viable dev platform. Which, if you reverse cause and effect is blatantly obvious. If ARM comes anywhere close to viable enough to be "winning", there will be a good market for dev platforms, and somebody will step in and fill the need. Heck, some are even arguing here that the Pine64 already meets that need.

For applications not involving system code, a viable development platform is instantly available by developing remotely.

Why is this discussion so fixated on having a local development environment? It's 2019.

Re: Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

#509

Post by ronreiter » Sat, Feb 23, 2019, 5:06 PM UTC

antirez wrote: post #145

It's extremely hard to agree with Linus on that. One problem in his argument is that he believes that everybody has a kernel hacker mindset: most today's developers don't care about environment reproducibility at architecture level. The second problem is that he believes that every kind of development is as platform sensitive as kernel hacking, and he even makes the example of Perl scripts. The reality is that one ye…

Yes!

Re: Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

#510

Post by IWeldMelons » Sat, Feb 23, 2019, 6:04 PM UTC

josephg wrote: post #452

alias_neo wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Developers don't develop on Surface books, and Macbooks are in low percentages. The majority of people in the world writing code are using x86 PCs and Microsoft and Apple aren't about to change that with any *Book. Linus' premise that everyone will continue to use x86 for development is because they will. There's no incentive for companies or individuals to go switch out all of that x86 hardware sitting on desks and…

> Macbooks are in low percentages For some reason Macbooks seem disproportionately represented amongst web developers. All the agencies I know in Sydney and Melbourne are full of macbooks. > There's no incentive for companies or individuals to go switch out all of that x86 hardware sitting on desks and in racks with ARM alternatives which will offer them lower performance than their already slightly aged hardware at…

Yeah, well, I live in one of the ex-USSR countries. And guess what - there are no Macs here whatsoever. I'd suspect that x86 is the prevalent platform in China and India, the dominant players in the outsourcing markets. So, no, most of development is done on Intel machines.