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Toxic ‘Forever Chemicals’ in Drinking Water Leave Military Families Reeling

nytimes.com

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Re: Toxic ‘Forever Chemicals’ in Drinking Water Leave Military Families Reeling

#31

Post by JohnJamesRambo »

denimnerd42 wrote: post #28
dade_ wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RO systems are excellent for water purification as well and certainly more convenient if you own your home. So I will restate, I don't understand why RO or distillation systems aren't far more common.

they are expensive, require an expensive plumber to install, potentially another source for leaks, and require regular cleaning. i'd rather just pay $10/month for gallons and gallons of bottled water.

I haven't found that to be the case.

https://www.amazon.com/Whirlpool-WHER25-Reverse-Osmosis-Filt... that is $130 and the kits are very easy to install. In 13 months you'd have it paid off and you can make all the water you want.

Re: Toxic ‘Forever Chemicals’ in Drinking Water Leave Military Families Reeling

#32

Post by jorgesborges »

orf wrote: post #23
DoreenMichele wrote: post #18

I was a military wife for a lot of years. I have very serious health problems. Doctors officially blame that on my genes, which can't be changed, so it's a de facto means to throw their hands in the air and call me unfixable. I think environmental factors are a big part of the problem and that those can be addressed. I lived on a military base for 2.75 years where there was one tap in the house labeled "potable water…

Seems your condition is very different from that of a newborn baby with an under developed and fragile immune system, who's mothers are fed mistruths about how harmful vaccines are. I don't see how your story relates in any way about harmful anti-vax groups (and vaccines in general) other than "I got some unrelated help at one point". So yes, we can absolutely be happy they are being demonitized. That being said I am…

I think there's a relationship but it's tenuously stated. Anti-vax is in part due to an erosion of trust in our experts and institutions. This case is a prime example. You have people that have been poisoned for decades by their government. It's no surprise to me that a person who can't trust the safety of her own drinking water is reluctant to receive government-sponsored injections.

Re: Toxic ‘Forever Chemicals’ in Drinking Water Leave Military Families Reeling

#33

Post by salawat »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #18

I was a military wife for a lot of years. I have very serious health problems. Doctors officially blame that on my genes, which can't be changed, so it's a de facto means to throw their hands in the air and call me unfixable. I think environmental factors are a big part of the problem and that those can be addressed. I lived on a military base for 2.75 years where there was one tap in the house labeled "potable water…

I'm saddened it sounds like you've apparently fallen victim to a doctor who has more "important" things to do than see you. I've been in that position before, and have found that there is nothing more dangerous to society than a physician that simply can't be bothered. It undermines the credibility of every other practitioner out there, and makes the already non-trivial task of maintaining Public Health even more difficult.

However, a couple points.

A) Don't get discouraged. Tricare us one of the most widely accepted insurances, and I can guarantee there are physicians worth their salt out there that can help you. You might have to travel further than you like if you do have legitimate genetic conditions, but I can guarantee the extra travel will be worth it for the expertise. Many doctors entered the field for the paycheck, and will balk at difficult patients. If you are one, it is upon you to become an expert on yourself and find the physician who can work with you. It's tough, believe me, but the right physician is worth the trouble.

B) Anti-Vaxxers: I'm not going to say you're a crank. When you've been burned by someone who purportedly took an oath to do no harm, yet is doing so through inaction and uncaring, you start looking for help anywhere you can get it. That's just human nature. Please understand though that distinguishing the hokey, and the harmful from what might be the truth is extremely difficult. Alternative medical practices will require you to be your own scientist, and I don't recommend approaching anything with blind trust. You have to become your own expert, which means figuring out how to read the few relevant studies the occasional researcher can cobble together the resources to do.

But for the love of all that is good, don't buy into "don't vaccinate". It's one of the biggest public health threats out there. The diseases that are prevented are crippling, if not lethal, and can be easily prevented through vaccination.

Don't let a medical asshat turn you off of medicine. It just means you need to look elsewhere.

Re: Toxic ‘Forever Chemicals’ in Drinking Water Leave Military Families Reeling

#34

Post by DoreenMichele »

jorgesborges wrote: post #32
orf wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems your condition is very different from that of a newborn baby with an under developed and fragile immune system, who's mothers are fed mistruths about how harmful vaccines are. I don't see how your story relates in any way about harmful anti-vax groups (and vaccines in general) other than "I got some unrelated help at one point". So yes, we can absolutely be happy they are being demonitized. That being said I am…

I think there's a relationship but it's tenuously stated. Anti-vax is in part due to an erosion of trust in our experts and institutions. This case is a prime example. You have people that have been poisoned for decades by their government. It's no surprise to me that a person who can't trust the safety of her own drinking water is reluctant to receive government-sponsored injections.

It's no surprise to me that a person who can't trust the safety of her own drinking water is reluctant to receive government-sponsored injections.

I'm not an antivaxxer. I've had my vaccines, though I no longer get annual flu shots and lots of people are very quick to demonize me as an antivaxxer over that detail.

it's tenuously stated.

I've tried to improve the clarity of that one paragraph in my above remark.

Re: Toxic ‘Forever Chemicals’ in Drinking Water Leave Military Families Reeling

#35

Post by lkrubner »

hu3 wrote: post #6

This is really bad. Most bad things in life are reversible but this degree of health damage isn't. May everyone responsible for this be exemplarily punished to deter this kind of disregard for human life from happening again. > Since then, the Defense Department has admitted that it allowed a firefighting foam to slip into at least 55 drinking water systems at military bases around the globe, sometimes for generation…

The curious thing is, it takes a lot of money to train military personnel. You’d think the military would hesitate to inflict an injury on itself such as this. If a terrorist organization did this then the USA would go to war.

Re: Toxic ‘Forever Chemicals’ in Drinking Water Leave Military Families Reeling

#36

Post by hanniabu »

bitexploder wrote: post #24
hu3 wrote: post #6

This is really bad. Most bad things in life are reversible but this degree of health damage isn't. May everyone responsible for this be exemplarily punished to deter this kind of disregard for human life from happening again. > Since then, the Defense Department has admitted that it allowed a firefighting foam to slip into at least 55 drinking water systems at military bases around the globe, sometimes for generation…

They will not be punished. They never are. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocky_Flats_Plant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Alamos_National_Laboratory... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanford_Site https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_of_the_United_... The "problems" kill people. From the governments perspective this soft, civilian side, collateral damage is a required cost of our military machine. Inside of…

Unfortunately we have an issue where we don't learn until the effects become unbearable. The sad part is that the effects that we're inducing on the environment are largely undoable. When we finally learn our lesson and decide that money and power shouldn't be able to override not just local health, but global health, it'll be too late and we'll just need to learn to live with the shitty world we've left for ourselves.

Re: Toxic ‘Forever Chemicals’ in Drinking Water Leave Military Families Reeling

#37

Post by gorilla_fight »

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #5
lr4444lr wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't drinking distilled water in significant quantities remove important minerals from your body?

No that is a common myth. Food has plenty of minerals etc compared to what you get via tap water. https://www.healthline.com/health/can-you-drink-distilled-wa...

From the very article you linked to:

"Because it doesn’t contain its own minerals, distilled water has a tendency to pull them from whatever it touches to maintain a balance.

So when you drink distilled water, _it may pull small amounts of minerals from your body, including from your teeth._"

How does this contradict lr4444lr's claim "drinking distilled water in significant quantities remove important minerals from your body"?

Are you arguing it is a matter of degree, that while distilled water does remove minerals from your body, the "myth" is that it is significant?

> Food has plenty of minerals etc compared to what you get via tap water.

How many minerals do you receive from food and how do you know this is sufficient?

There is research showing a (weak) correlation between hard water (high in mineral content, as opposed to the low/zero mineral content of distilled water) and cardiovascular health, eczema, and dermatitis:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004896978... Studies of water quality and cardiovascular disease in the United Kingdom

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S001393510... Ecological association of water hardness with prevalence of childhood atopic dermatitis in a Japanese urban area

https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(16)30187-7/ful... Association between domestic water hardness, chlorine, and atopic dermatitis risk in early life: A population-based cross-sectional study

Re: Toxic ‘Forever Chemicals’ in Drinking Water Leave Military Families Reeling

#38

Post by save_ferris »

orf wrote: post #23
DoreenMichele wrote: post #18

I was a military wife for a lot of years. I have very serious health problems. Doctors officially blame that on my genes, which can't be changed, so it's a de facto means to throw their hands in the air and call me unfixable. I think environmental factors are a big part of the problem and that those can be addressed. I lived on a military base for 2.75 years where there was one tap in the house labeled "potable water…

Seems your condition is very different from that of a newborn baby with an under developed and fragile immune system, who's mothers are fed mistruths about how harmful vaccines are. I don't see how your story relates in any way about harmful anti-vax groups (and vaccines in general) other than "I got some unrelated help at one point". So yes, we can absolutely be happy they are being demonitized. That being said I am…

Embracing the anti-vax movement because the standard healthcare system has failed this individual isn't something I considered before, but it makes a lot of sense. Our healthcare system is expensive, difficult to navigate, and the quality of care is wildly inconsistent.

I'm by no means an anti-vaxer, but there have to be millions of Americans that are fed up with the state of healthcare and looking for an alternative.

Re: Toxic ‘Forever Chemicals’ in Drinking Water Leave Military Families Reeling

#39

Post by agumonkey »

caseymarquis wrote: post #10

I wonder if there's a way to democratize inexpensive health testing and see these trends faster? Imagine a world where you're testing your blood/sweat/saliva/vitals daily and semi-anonymously sending the results to be analysed using statistical methods. A doctor can give you a one time use current diagnoses voucher to add into the system for serious diseases. The whole thing is voluntary. There's definitely some dyst…

I so wish states were massive scale testing device machines/manufacturer.

ps: a lot of systemic issues are due to lack of information and trust. To exemplify, there was a story about people electricity consumption. Those with a counter in the basement used a lot more than those with the counter near the front door.

Re: Toxic ‘Forever Chemicals’ in Drinking Water Leave Military Families Reeling

#40

Post by apo »

Blood testing has emerged as a sticking point. Specifically, a growing movement of veterans and others, united in advocacy groups with names like Fountain Valley Clean Water Coalition and Need Our Water, are asking the military test their blood for the chemicals, hoping to bring results to their doctors or use them in lawsuits.

Strange that the article is being so cagey about why this might be the case.

Every human blood sample tested since the 1950s has shown detectable perfluorooctanoic acid (PFOA aka C8, a member of the PFAS class of chemicals mentioned in the article). The problem was so bad that DuPont had to search high and low for blood samples that weren't contaminated with PFOA. They did eventually find clean samples - archived from a group of recruits for the Korean War.

A little about the chemistry. Think of most forms of grease as a greasy, long, water-repellant chain of carbon-hydrogen bonds attached to a small water-attractive "polar" head. PFASs replace all of the carbon-hydrogen bonds in the greasy tail with carbon-fluorine bonds. This makes the molecule repel grease (great for non-stick coatings throughout the house). But the carbon-fluroene bond is quite inert, thus the name "forever chemical." There are few environmental mechanisms that can degrade them - either exposed or inside a body.

This article fails to put the problem into proper context - making it sound unique to military bases. That not true. PFOA is a problem at numerous sites. Nobody knows the long-term consequences of releasing this much highly-inert, carcinogenic material into the environment. What is known is that those unfortunate enough to have worked on PFOA production and who received high exposure to it developed horrific problems including cancers.

The Intercept did a massive series on this:

https://theintercept.com/series/the-teflon-toxin/

The Netflix documentary "The Devil We Know" is also worth watching:

https://www.netflix.com/title/80997719

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