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You Do Not Need Blockchain: Popular Use Cases and Why They Do Not Work

blog.smartdec.net

181–190 of 415 posts

Re: You Do Not Need Blockchain: Popular Use Cases and Why They Do Not Work

#181
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but who owns the database? And who enforces the contract? And who owns the actual data? > Blockchain provides satisfactory answers to all those problems. What problems? I mean your arguing like something like public transportation is an impossibility without blockchain backing because: "Who owns the stations, who enforces the schedules and who owns the actual busses?" Those are not problems. They are all just quest…

But what if two banks are transferring money between themselves? Which bank owns the database? Why should the other bank trust that database?

I can't speak to banks, but I have some personal experience with this sort of thing in the case of trading. I'm guessing it's at least somewhat similar to how it works among banks.

All the big players have got real-time feeds they're sharing with each other to keep track of who's made what transactions, and they're constantly reconciling them against each other, to make sure that everyone's looking at the same picture. There are also daily reports summarizing the previous day's activity, and they are also reconciled as a second check. The proactive parties work together to sort out any discrepancies they find as soon as they find them.

None of this is strictly necessary, because there is a central source of truth that you can rely on. But it tends to operate much too slowly for a lot of people's needs, and mistakes do happen, and they can be costly, so it pays to be proactive. Meaning that, in general, nobody's actually relying on the central authority to keep this organized.

The actual real-time feeds are log-structured: You can add new records, but not delete old ones. If you want to reverse a transaction, you just add a new entry to the ledger to back it out.

In that sense, it works a lot like how a blockchain would work. The only difference is, nobody's bothering with all that crypto stuff, because all it would do is make the whole thing more expensive. Like, literally, that's the only impact I can see. It won't help with preventing errors - when mistakes happen, it's invariably because of an error at the boundary of the system, and fiddling around with hashes of the previous message when sending new ones does nothing to guard against that. All it would do is slow both the throughput and latency of transactions by introducing more spots where synchronization must occur together with a bunch of ancillary computational load.

In a world where time is money, that sure sounds to me like a $100 solution to a 1¢ problem.

Re: You Do Not Need Blockchain: Popular Use Cases and Why They Do Not Work

#182
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but who owns the database? And who enforces the contract? And who owns the actual data? > Blockchain provides satisfactory answers to all those problems. What problems? I mean your arguing like something like public transportation is an impossibility without blockchain backing because: "Who owns the stations, who enforces the schedules and who owns the actual busses?" Those are not problems. They are all just quest…

But what if two banks are transferring money between themselves? Which bank owns the database? Why should the other bank trust that database?

[deleted]

Re: You Do Not Need Blockchain: Popular Use Cases and Why They Do Not Work

#183

Anyone have any good counter arguments to articles like this? That there is a use case that makes sense? I’ve been trying to find one and can’t, but it hasn’t stopped major corporations like IBM, who I would expect to jump on the hype train, but even AWS is embracing it to a degree with their latest announcements.

The supply chain management use case from the article might not really work in the sense that the oracles/involved parties can tamper with the their input sensors, but it still offers other parties plausible deniability.

Let's say you get meat delivered by cooling trucks and this is mirrored in a public block chain. You publicly claim that all your meat is sufficiently cooled and every single delivery is tracked. If this data is in a public block chain, there is no doubt that you didn't input this data, it was in fact the delivery company, and if they cheated with their cooling sensors, the liability is on them. With a privately hosted database under control of the corporation (you), there would be suspicion that you manipulated it.

So it doesn't actually solve the problem, but you can legitimately claim that you did as much as you could (as far as using technology goes at least) to ensure the quality of the delivered meat.

Re: You Do Not Need Blockchain: Popular Use Cases and Why They Do Not Work

#184
post #49

I've said this several times before on this site but will keep repeating it: there's exactly one use case where the blockchain is a superior (and, in fact, the only) solution: when you can't use contracts and the legal system to ensure trust between the parties. In other words, anything illegal. For any other conceivable use case, a database and a contract between parties are a superior solution. Edit: To clarify wha…

There are other legit reasons for not being able to use regular contracts and legal systems. For example, when you are dealing with multiple small transactions where a potential for fraud on the buyer side is significant. Also, if you want to build automated systems for money management, the barrier of entry will be significant in the legacy banking system. Or managing electronic assets (stocks etc) - blockchain sign…

> Also, if you want to build automated systems for money management, the barrier of entry will be significant in the legacy banking system.

There are a lot of good reasons why there's a high barrier of entry to set up shop in the financial system.

Trying to sidestep financial regulations through using cryptocurrency/blockchain is at least trying to actively exploit loopholes in the law, if not actually illegal.

Re: You Do Not Need Blockchain: Popular Use Cases and Why They Do Not Work

#185
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? You (seriously plan to resort to) go(ing) to court over every contractual dispute? Even $5? HN Bandwagon, Monday: "Don't you understand that courts exist to make it so no one can break a contract without penalty?" HN Bandwagon, Tuesday: "Lol don't go to court over $5, that's stupid."

Mind elaborating a little more on this use case?

It was responding to:

>when you can't use contracts and the legal system to ensure trust between the parties

If a threat to sue over the violation of small amounts is not credible, the court system doesn't help.

Re: You Do Not Need Blockchain: Popular Use Cases and Why They Do Not Work

#186
post #51
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? You (seriously plan to resort to) go(ing) to court over every contractual dispute? Even $5? HN Bandwagon, Monday: "Don't you understand that courts exist to make it so no one can break a contract without penalty?" HN Bandwagon, Tuesday: "Lol don't go to court over $5, that's stupid."

Credit card companies have a good system for handling $5 disputes. They write them off.

And either the merchant or the company gets stuck with the $5 dispute, while the guilty party enjoys a free $5. Nice system!

Re: You Do Not Need Blockchain: Popular Use Cases and Why They Do Not Work

#187
The author concedes that smart contracts will likely find their niche one day.

...but I think that they have already found a good one: dramatically increasing the difficulty of collusion in any m-of-n scheme. Technologies which rely on m-of-n such as Shamir's Secret Sharing and Threshold Proxy Re-encryption (disclaimer: I work at NuCypher) have never found widespread use because the ease of collusion among unknown third parties is easy enough to warrant using known third parties (and once you do that, the use cases for such schemes tend to evaporate).

But look at the upcoming cohort of solid blockchain projects: many of them use smart contracts for collusion resistance.

Re: You Do Not Need Blockchain: Popular Use Cases and Why They Do Not Work

#188
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My sense is the set of scenarios where "you can't use contracts and the legal system to ensure trust between the parties" is broader than just illegal agreements. Contract often fail when the damages for breach are too small, diffuse, and heterogeneous, making class action unsuitable. And many contract provisions are often not honored in bankruptcy. Litigation is an unwieldy tool and preferably avoided where possible…

But that's where small-claims court comes in. It mostly only costs you your time, you aren't really allowed to bring in a lawyer to argue on your behalf, etc. etc. Depending on your location, the MAXIMUM damages for small-claims court is $5000 to $10,000. The whole system is designed so that smaller issues can be resolved quickly. > And many contract provisions are often not honored in bankruptcy That's literally the…

Unfortunately not every country has a small claims system. Also, I’m not entirely sure how etherum contracts work but if using them means money is transferred automatically upon objectivly measured completion, then I would very much like that even if I did have access to a small claims court.

Re: You Do Not Need Blockchain: Popular Use Cases and Why They Do Not Work

#189
post #113
post #31

I've spent a lot of time doing consulting around blockchains for fortune 500 companies. Most technology choices are not a need. You can use MongoDB or MySQL in most cases. There are places where MongoDB has benefits, just as there are cases where a permissioned, immutable record has benefits. It's not a silver bullet, but it can add trust. This article seems to miss that creating immutable records of intermediary att…

Immutable data structure + GDPR right to correct or remove information = ? (You can sort of get away with it if it's b2b only or a legal requirement to audit, but that limits the use cases further)

You can store hashes in the blockchain for auditing, you don't need to store the actual data.

Re: You Do Not Need Blockchain: Popular Use Cases and Why They Do Not Work

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what if two banks are transferring money between themselves? Which bank owns the database? Why should the other bank trust that database?

"SWIFT was founded in Brussels in 1973 under the leadership of its inaugural CEO, Carl Reuterskiöld (1973–1989), and was supported by 239 banks in fifteen countries. It started to establish common standards for financial transactions and a shared data processing system and worldwide communications network designed by Logica and developed by the Burroughs Corporation. Fundamental operating procedures, rules for liabil…

SWIFT is a messaging system, not a settlement system. Its also far slower than blockchain, more complex, and more prone to error. I think around 6% of transactions just disappear.
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