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You Do Not Need Blockchain: Popular Use Cases and Why They Do Not Work

blog.smartdec.net

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Re: You Do Not Need Blockchain: Popular Use Cases and Why They Do Not Work

#151
the only real use for blockchain are people shilling and pumping it. This is a violaton of US security laws and I've been crawling various crypto pump & dump channels and groups to submit as evidence to US whistleblower program.

So far I've been able to link many HN accounts with these pump & dump groups, it's quite surprising how poor infosec is amongst these crypto enthusiasts, while knowingly or unknowingly partake in a classic pump & dump scheme with US SEC & DOJ posturing to label all ICO as securities fraud according to an insider....

I'm about to get a fat paycheck for my work....it was quite rewarding since I never bought into crypto and have been just annoyed for the past 5 years hearing idiocy being shilled everywhere.

If you are reading this and your heart is racing, you know the crimes you've committed against society and you will be punished accordingly.

Re: You Do Not Need Blockchain: Popular Use Cases and Why They Do Not Work

#152

I've said this several times before on this site but will keep repeating it: there's exactly one use case where the blockchain is a superior (and, in fact, the only) solution: when you can't use contracts and the legal system to ensure trust between the parties. In other words, anything illegal. For any other conceivable use case, a database and a contract between parties are a superior solution. Edit: To clarify wha…

[deleted]

Re: You Do Not Need Blockchain: Popular Use Cases and Why They Do Not Work

#153

I've said this several times before on this site but will keep repeating it: there's exactly one use case where the blockchain is a superior (and, in fact, the only) solution: when you can't use contracts and the legal system to ensure trust between the parties. In other words, anything illegal. For any other conceivable use case, a database and a contract between parties are a superior solution. Edit: To clarify wha…

Potentially legit use-case: electronic voting. In this scenario, you need to offer a number of guarantees. Chiefly: 1. Is my vote anonymous? (If not perfectly, owing to low level timestamps or transaction ids that can get cross-referenced with other data sources, at least for all practical intents?) 2. Can I be sure my vote got tallied the way I voted? 3. If I'd like to verify the result, is there a tamper-proof elec…

You don't "need" to offer these guarantees. Personally, I'm happy with paper ballots.

Re: You Do Not Need Blockchain: Popular Use Cases and Why They Do Not Work

#154
post #14

Anyone have any good counter arguments to articles like this? That there is a use case that makes sense? I’ve been trying to find one and can’t, but it hasn’t stopped major corporations like IBM, who I would expect to jump on the hype train, but even AWS is embracing it to a degree with their latest announcements.

Blockchain-the-datastructure is incredibly useful and widely deployed — e.g. Git histories are blockchains (well, a slightly extended version of a blockchain that allows you to represent a DAG, same difference). Blockchain-the-trustless-consensus-protocol has a fundamental challenge that makes it completely and utterly pointless for most applications — the oracle problem. You build up a whole system around a secure t…

Only in a crazy loose sense. Git histories do not have enforced immutability or trustlessness. And they are really merkle trees, which have been around for decades. If blockchains (as described in this manner) are so amazing, why wasn't there hype for merkle trees in 1995?

Re: You Do Not Need Blockchain: Popular Use Cases and Why They Do Not Work

#155
post #66

Based on reading a few articles like this, I think my understanding of blockchain-related tech is different from other folks and I'm kinda confused. Could some kind soul help clear things up? When I think "blockchain", I basically think of a git branch: history is verifiably immutable and using some external tools like a public rng, one can prove that a block was not created before a certain time. When I think "distr…

Blockchains have been overloaded by a bunch of people bringing modern technology to ancient industries as a sort of buzzword. So to an extent you are right the author's definition is narrow, and on the other hand the author is right in that their narrow definition is the correct one.

Blockchains are generally defined by the original paper for bitcoin: https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf these would have a couple of key properties. They are trustless, distributed, and public through the use of cryptographic and computational algorithms. Most modern "blockchains" (that aren't currencies of some form) violate one of these properties.

> When I think "blockchain", I basically think of a git branch: history is verifiably immutable and using some external tools like a public rng, one can prove that a block was not created before a certain time.

The system you describe here involves trust. "Public RNG" implies we are talking about some sort of SSL certificate company's time server. Proof of work is stronger than that. It says it's impossible for someone to misrepresent the shared ledger unless they have more computational power than the entire system put together. And it's a fundamental part of how the ledger is structured (it's not external).

> When I think "distributed ledger/distributed consensus" I think of the practice of using basically properties of statistics to get a bunch of nodes to agree on the state of something.

Again proof of work is stronger than this. The nodes agree because the given branch is provably the strongest branch of truth. Distributed consensus is about getting the nodes to work together when you can trust they all want to, not when they are all trying to compete with each other.

> Neither of those things really seem to make sense as the author's definition of "blockchain". What is he referring to?

Because neither of your definitions fit a blockchain. Your definitions fit the broader cases of technology being passed off as "blockchain" in (the best light) an attempt to get these old companies to modernize (in a worse light) and take their money because they are idiots.

Things like distributed version control systems, distrusted consensus systems, and cryptographic ledgers are all useful, but they involve trust. And for a lot of these applications that's fine. A company putting out a cryptographic ledger (e.g. provable) for cosmetic item transactions is an improvement, but it's not a block-chain (it's not distributed or it's not trustless).

I mean the author discusses this: "Be careful! Today, digital signatures are often sold as blockchain. Perhaps a digital signature is all you really need and blockchain does not really suit your requirements." a digital signature system of arbitrary complexity (perhaps with a ledger of issued signatures, or an external time server, or agreement on which signature is the winner) is all most people in this space need.

The only reason one needs a block chain is if they are making a currency.

Re: You Do Not Need Blockchain: Popular Use Cases and Why They Do Not Work

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, no. Global, trustless coordination is a hard problem and is not necessarily illegal. Second, legality is subjective around the world. It is currently illegal in the US to gamble online, for some reason, even though casinos and lotteries are a thing. It is illegal in many countries to transfer a certain amount of money out of the country, for some reason. Certain sexualities are illegal in quite a few co…

I'm not saying: you don't need the blockchain because you shouldn't be doing bad things. I'm saying: you need the blockchain if and only if you are doing things that are illegal in your country. It's a decision criteria for when you need the blockchain. I'm making no moral judgement. And there are very good reasons to want to do things that your government deems illegal (for example, donating to a political organizat…

>I'm saying: you need the blockchain if and only if you are doing things that are illegal in your country. It's a decision criteria for when you need the blockchain.

This is, at face value, simply false.

I want to send $5 to a poor African family. I'll even relax my criteria - I'm willing to wait _up to 3 business days_ for this African family to receive my $5. I live in California.

Could you please point me towards the non-blockchain way to do this?

Re: You Do Not Need Blockchain: Popular Use Cases and Why They Do Not Work

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying: you don't need the blockchain because you shouldn't be doing bad things. I'm saying: you need the blockchain if and only if you are doing things that are illegal in your country. It's a decision criteria for when you need the blockchain. I'm making no moral judgement. And there are very good reasons to want to do things that your government deems illegal (for example, donating to a political organizat…

I can send 1 bitcoin from myself living in Minnesota to my friend living in Japan for the equivalent of $0.46. That's an improvement over the existing system. I don't have to trust anyone in between to get my money to him. How would that be as possible and as "trustless" without blockchain?

1. Regarding the fees: $0.46 is (I presume) only the transaction fees. To make an accurate comparison, you'd have to include the exchange fees to convert from USD to BTC and then from BTC to JPY.

Right now Coinbase is charging me $59 to buy 1 BTC, and I don't know how much more it would be to sell exchange that back to JPY.

You can send $4000 (about 1 BTC) to someone in Japan for $30.14 with TransferWise.

And guess what? Last time I had to send money to my family in Europe, that's exactly what I did.

2. Regarding trust:

> don't have to trust anyone in between to get my money to him.

Yes you do. Both your friend and you need to trust your Bitcoin exchange. Which sometimes, cannot be trusted. Remember Mt Gox?

Re: You Do Not Need Blockchain: Popular Use Cases and Why They Do Not Work

#158

I've said this several times before on this site but will keep repeating it: there's exactly one use case where the blockchain is a superior (and, in fact, the only) solution: when you can't use contracts and the legal system to ensure trust between the parties. In other words, anything illegal. For any other conceivable use case, a database and a contract between parties are a superior solution. Edit: To clarify wha…

Eh. While I basically agree with this in the context of rule of law, 1st world countries- I'm increasingly coming around to the idea that blockchain-based solutions could be better for developing countries where the legal system is vastly inferior. And I'm a longtime crypto skeptic.

>can't use contracts and the legal system to ensure trust between the parties

I.e. where the majority of the world's population resides, developing countries where (sorry) Corruption Rules Everything Around Me. Or there's an appeals system where cases drag out for decades (hello Brazil!) Or where the judges are simply not sophisticated enough to adjudicate complex financial contracts.

I don't think crypto/blockchain solutions have a ton to offer the developed world, but there's an awful lot of humanity outside of those institutions. 'Our existing financial world is working just fine, thank you' is a very 1st world perspective. Kind of hilariously, a lot off the issues that crypto enthusiasts rail against (inflation, political central banks, etc.) are basically untrue for their own countries, but are true for others. I think a stablecoin pegged to the US dollar that's super-intuitive to use on mobile could achieve hockey stick growth in Latin America, Africa, parts of Asia, etc.

Re: You Do Not Need Blockchain: Popular Use Cases and Why They Do Not Work

#159
post #149

I've said this several times before on this site but will keep repeating it: there's exactly one use case where the blockchain is a superior (and, in fact, the only) solution: when you can't use contracts and the legal system to ensure trust between the parties. In other words, anything illegal. For any other conceivable use case, a database and a contract between parties are a superior solution. Edit: To clarify wha…

This seems like gatekeeping. I think blockchains will make great accounting systems for firms working together. Construction is a prime example. You can have 10 companies working together to maintain one book for a large project, and then eliminate the need to be audited. The technology can replace manual processes that happen after the data is placed in the database, to verify the data should have been entered. And…

Don't see how this happens. How do you verify the work? It works in a purely electric fashion which is what Bitcoin is but you still need someone to verify things in the real world. Audits exist so that third parties can verify the books. Literally in a blockchain you just put in whatever you want how did you verify that that is what happened in the real world?

Re: You Do Not Need Blockchain: Popular Use Cases and Why They Do Not Work

#160
post #10

Anyone have any good counter arguments to articles like this? That there is a use case that makes sense? I’ve been trying to find one and can’t, but it hasn’t stopped major corporations like IBM, who I would expect to jump on the hype train, but even AWS is embracing it to a degree with their latest announcements.

The only application i can think of is proving something existed at a certain date by putting the hash in the blockchain. Op says it won't help authorship since earlier real author can claim he didn't use the blockchain but it's still helpful to prove something simply existed.

For example:

You find a security vulnerability in some applications. You want to make an anonymous disclosure but you want to be able to prove you knew about it at a certain time.

So you create the message "I John Doe has found the vulnerability ..." and add the hash to the blockchain.

You can now definitely prove that you knew about it and had documented it at a certain timestamp before the disclosure.

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