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The Shadow Scholar

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Re: The Shadow Scholar

#101

Post by Estragon »

_delirium wrote: post #72
twrensch wrote: post #23

I spent five years teaching at the University level. The beginning of the end of my academic career was receiving an e-mail from a student explaining one of my (programming) assignments and asking if they could write this one too. To me this was an obvious case of VERY incorrectly choosing the "to" address for an e-mail. I immediately contacted my department head and was ready to apply the school's academic dishonest…

I guess this particular part has never greatly bothered me about academia, though plenty of things are quite broken and bother me. I mainly value whatever education takes place, not the formalities, so if someone who doesn't deserve it gets a degree, who cares? I can see that for people who care about the value of the pieces of paper, it's important to keep unqualified people from getting them. I just can't bring mys…

It matters more when the credential is used in licensing a difficult and socially important function like medical care, though. I think people were undestandably up in arms a while back about the institutions which were giving out fake degrees.

Re: The Shadow Scholar

#102

Post by robak »

_delirium wrote: post #82
robryan wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Different perspective though, from an academics point of view that does make an effort to reach out to students and teach them well this cheating would be disheartening.

I can see that, but I'm an academic myself, and somehow it doesn't bother me much (it does bother many of my colleagues). I guess I'm most strongly motivated by providing assistance and resources to people who want to learn, so whatever happens with the people who don't want to learn doesn't bother me that much. I'll enforce whatever rules I have to, to the extent the institution provides me a means to do so (and req…

So, it doesn't bother you as an Academic to have students at an University who do NOT want to learn... ?

That's the problem with the US - everybody cares about the money and money only.

That's why the system funded by taxes seems better - academics are there to teach people who want to learn. Doctors are there to provide health care. Doesn't this just sound more... hmmm... normal for the lack of a better word?

Re: The Shadow Scholar

#103

Post by lurker14 »

thefool wrote: post #5

I am involved with a startup working on this problem ( http://GuruFi.com ). Fundamentally this problem is derives from the fact that it is difficult for people to learn how to write and structure their ideas. Hell thats basically the whole point of PhD programs, and people spend years finishing them. With the internet, it becomes really easy to just pay someone else who already knows how to write to do the work for y…

It looks more like an essay-writing service than a educational service to me.

Two of the reviews of the #1 "Editor/Tutor" http://www.gurufi.com/editor/brian, don't seems to reflect students who learned anything about writing their own coherent sentences:

* "He knows what I want to say more than I do. Thank you for your clear and professional writing. "

* "It was the second to have you edit my article, and it was also the second to feel so surprised when I read it! Thank you!"

The #2 "editor" has a similarly uninspiring review:

*"Simply, Josh is a perfect. I got revision from him until I satisfied. I'm so happy with his revision. Additionally, his comments are very constructive to me. I learned about writing SoP from him. Thanks a lot Josh. "

About three-quarters of the reviews seem generically unoffensive, but many of them are cause for concern.

Re: The Shadow Scholar

#104

Post by yters »

mak120 wrote: post #87
yters wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Managing effectively is more about people skills than education.

So, I guess you could just pick up an illiterate guy with good people skills to run a large corporation or be the president?

Yep, pretty much. As long as he can talk with experts and understand their position he can lead.

Re: The Shadow Scholar

#105

Post by jacques_chester »

_delirium wrote: post #82
robryan wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Different perspective though, from an academics point of view that does make an effort to reach out to students and teach them well this cheating would be disheartening.

I can see that, but I'm an academic myself, and somehow it doesn't bother me much (it does bother many of my colleagues). I guess I'm most strongly motivated by providing assistance and resources to people who want to learn, so whatever happens with the people who don't want to learn doesn't bother me that much. I'll enforce whatever rules I have to, to the extent the institution provides me a means to do so (and req…

I'm sorry to be a pain, but by not punishing the cheating 'free riders', you are pushing the cost of those free riders onto the good students.

The value of of the good students' education is eroded by poor quality of the cheaters.

Re: The Shadow Scholar

#106

Post by yardie »

mdwrigh2 wrote: post #14
yinmoneyhuang wrote: post #11

To a very limited extent, schools have tried to protect themselves from such cheating by requiring students (or prospective students) to compose writing samples under controlled conditions. The Law School Admission Test (LSAT), for instance, requires students to write an essay. The essay is not scored; rather, it is forwarded to the schools to which the student has applied. The schools then compare the LSAT essay to…

While this is an interesting way of comparing, I'd be slightly worried if I were applying to law school. Given that you have a limited amount of time to write your LSAT essay, and an essentially unlimited amount of time to write and polish your personal statement (plus have professors, friends and family look over it), I could see there being a large but legitimate gap between the two. Perhaps it's not as great as I…

There are style markers (the writer's voice) that are in the paper no matter how it is edited. This is how critics and editors can tell when a book is written by the real author and when it is ghostwritten. The only way it's possible to avoid this is to digest a lot of material by the original author so you learn to become that voice.

This is also prevalent in song lyrics. You can hear when a rapper, for example, is using their own material rather than a ghostwriters. The flow and definition will be really different.

Re: The Shadow Scholar

#107

Post by skybrian »

gwern wrote: post #68
hardy263 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 75 page paper usually takes longer than 48 hours for normal students to write. If the version history for the paper is submitted, but all the commits are within a very short time frame, then either the student stayed up all night to write it, or they paid someone else to stay up all night to write it. And if you ask them about what the wrote on on something they took all night to write, they should know it fairly w…

So then this big company hires a programmer to write a tool to randomize entries over a week or a month or whatever, and our shadow scholar has 1 additional step when he finishes up. Basically, this idea is DRM in another guise, and terrible for all the same reasons. If you don't trust the student that much, then simply abandon take-home work in general.

Randomized entries would be obviously fake. To be a convincing fake, they have to make sure it doesn't conflict with the student's work schedule, class schedule, and so on. That means deciding when the student was supposed to have been writing the paper, which requires quite a bit more coordination and drives up the cost.

Re: The Shadow Scholar

#108

Post by mitcheme »

skybrian wrote: post #107
gwern wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then this big company hires a programmer to write a tool to randomize entries over a week or a month or whatever, and our shadow scholar has 1 additional step when he finishes up. Basically, this idea is DRM in another guise, and terrible for all the same reasons. If you don't trust the student that much, then simply abandon take-home work in general.

Randomized entries would be obviously fake. To be a convincing fake, they have to make sure it doesn't conflict with the student's work schedule, class schedule, and so on. That means deciding when the student was supposed to have been writing the paper, which requires quite a bit more coordination and drives up the cost.

You're assuming that the student doesn't own a laptop (or at least doesn't bring it to lectures) and that TPTB know the student's work schedule.

Re: The Shadow Scholar

#109

Post by petercooper »

JesseAldridge wrote: post #93
oz wrote: post #31

I, who dropped out of CompSci after my first year, was a small-time shadow scholar. It started innocently enough: I wasn't working, and a friend of a friend who was doing her Master's (in Education, wouldn't you know) needed help typing and formatting a document according to APA Style. I needed the money, so I visited her at the school where she worked. I took the draft she had penned and started reading. I nearly vo…

Before I dropped out of school altogether, I decided I would try devoting as little time to it as possible. I started forcing myself to write essays faster and faster. It got to the point where I would sit down in front of my computer for five to ten minutes and literally write a stream of consciousness vaguely connected to the topic. I could turn it in for a C or a D. We've all heard about the 80/20 rule, but it see…

This is what I did towards the end of high school. I did no revision outside of class (and did most of my homework in other classes), instead spending my time at home coding or socializing. I still took an A* in math and As in sciences and a few other subjects, with the remainders as Bs (except for Ds in woodwork and religion!) .. Didn't harm my future prospects at all and the coding practice helped a ton in getting my first couple of jobs.

Re: The Shadow Scholar

#110

Post by dhume »

liuhenry wrote: post #46
azanar wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it is reasonable to lay this at the feet of the education system. In fact, it is somewhat difficult to lay this at the feet of any system, to be honest. It is a systemic failure of both the system, and the people who depend upon it to do either what they can't do, or what they wish not to do. As for the system encouraging people to get a job, it is just responding to popular sentiment. The gauge people…

You have to believe something is worth caring about before you will expend energy to care about. I completely agree with this, but I think this is something the educational system should be able to impart. There are so many things we have elevated to the level of faux pas; is it really such a stretch to believe that demonstrated learning could not be elevated to the same level? What exactly do you mean by this? I thi…

I completely agree with this, but I think this is something the educational system should be able to impart.

By the time the schools get access to a kid, he's already had years to learn from his parents to value or to not value learning.

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