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Firefox to Block All 3rd Party Trackers by Default

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Re: Firefox to Block All 3rd Party Trackers by Default

#81

Post by xoa »

darkpuma wrote: post #34
rbinv wrote: post #15

Companies have begun switching tracking tech to first-party cookies (where possible) since Apple's introduction of "Intelligent Tracking Protection," so Mozilla's similar move probably won't have that much of an impact either. Apple has responded with ITP 2.1, though, limiting _all_ (persistent) cookie lifetime to 7 days, although these could probably be accurately re-issued/kept alive in my opinion: https://webkit.o…

I, and probably many other users, have begun blocking all first-party cookies by default. I only permit it on sites I sign into and want to remember me, which are very few. If Mozilla wants to make a real difference, they'd study uMatrix and figure out how to create UX that would give that degree of flexibility and power to non-technical users.

>I only permit it on sites I sign into and want to remember me, which are very few.

I don't know if I'm an outlier, but I hate having to resign back into sites I use even semi-regularly unless its for administrative access or purchase confirmation. Regular "auto sign outs" already happens with a few due to a snafu somewhere along the stack, for me The Economist and Foreign Affairs are the major ones where it seems like every time I go back to visit I'm signed out. In contrast sites like HN or Ars seem to never sign me out (or maybe once every few years) and some of the newspapers are once or twice a year. Being signed out creates more friction then I'd have thought before experiencing it often, perhaps amplified since I tend to read on the model of "see a few of interesting stories, open them all in tabs, then go through them" and if signed out I not only need to sign in but every single tab will be "you've reached your article limit please sign in".

I have suspicions about how much it even matters when it comes to tracking for any site I'm actually paying for. I mean, by definition they know who I am, real money is changing hands after all. Within their own site there is no technical measure that can prevent them from seeing what remote resources of theirs I specifically am calling for, it's their resources after all with authentication required. And once they have the info what would prevent them sharing/selling it would be their own interests and the law, not anything from my end. Clearing 1st party cookies smells suspiciously like privacy theater for any site at all that depends on authentication in any significant way.

Re: Firefox to Block All 3rd Party Trackers by Default

#82

Post by adtac »

rbinv wrote: post #15

Companies have begun switching tracking tech to first-party cookies (where possible) since Apple's introduction of "Intelligent Tracking Protection," so Mozilla's similar move probably won't have that much of an impact either. Apple has responded with ITP 2.1, though, limiting _all_ (persistent) cookie lifetime to 7 days, although these could probably be accurately re-issued/kept alive in my opinion: https://webkit.o…

I wish DNT was honoured, but it's as good as a "do not commit crime" sign.

Re: Firefox to Block All 3rd Party Trackers by Default

#83

Post by zcid »

phkahler wrote: post #74
darkpuma wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I, and probably many other users, have begun blocking all first-party cookies by default. I only permit it on sites I sign into and want to remember me, which are very few. If Mozilla wants to make a real difference, they'd study uMatrix and figure out how to create UX that would give that degree of flexibility and power to non-technical users.

>> I, and probably many other users, have begun blocking all first-party cookies by default. So this change should have no effect on you right? You're blocking all cookies? I like that idea, but how many things does it break?

I use uMatrix in Firefox to block javascript, cookies, media, etc by default. For any site I need to login, I can easily enable them.

I don't see it too often, but occasionally I do run across a site that won't load at all without cookies enabled. For these circumstances, I use Containers and Cookie AutoDelete.

The only situations where I tend to have problems are those where I have a third-party payment window that opens in a new tab. It sometimes takes some fiddling with the settings to make it work properly.

Re: Firefox to Block All 3rd Party Trackers by Default

#84

Post by zcid »

senorjazz wrote: post #69
darkpuma wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I, and probably many other users, have begun blocking all first-party cookies by default. I only permit it on sites I sign into and want to remember me, which are very few. If Mozilla wants to make a real difference, they'd study uMatrix and figure out how to create UX that would give that degree of flexibility and power to non-technical users.

I've never used umatrix and just stuck with noscript over the years due to the lengthy process of allowing scripts / domains, going through random external scripts required to make pages work that are not self-explanatory. Is there anything in umatrix to make the switch worthwhile?

I migrated to uMatrix because it allows me to block cookies, media, javascript, and xhr by default. It replaced several different privacy extensions with a single control panel. You can set the defaults to be as strict or lenient as you wish.

Re: Firefox to Block All 3rd Party Trackers by Default

#85

Post by puffy_magicdrgn »

chongli wrote: post #70
puffy_magicdrgn wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You send tracking events to your analytics/tracking partner from your backend instead of from the browser and they combine the cookie ids.

I thought the whole purpose of using third party JavaScript and third party cookies in advertising is that the advertisers don't trust the host backends. What's to stop a site operator from "boosting" the stats in order to make more money?

So you just do a get adprovider.foo/track/ from the browser with no cookies and batch send from your backend -- they then just make sure the data you send them roughly matches?

For most big sites this isn't a problem as you're not going to be gaming the stats (presumably the legal costs outweigh the benefit) -- for the scammy small sites faking ad rev.. Well, if this kills them then good riddance ?

Re: Firefox to Block All 3rd Party Trackers by Default

#86

Post by mirimir »

wbxrs wrote: post #23
Freak_NL wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good. Let them yell, allow the system to break. I'm not convinced that the current status quo of paying for services via targetted advertising that amounts to quite a severe level of manipulation and tracking is tenable (nor desirable). Figure out something better. The alternative is what we do now: a select group with tech savvy blocks advertisements, and lets the masses pick up the bill by 'accepting' ads and havin…

>The alternative is what we do now: a select group with tech savvy blocks advertisements, and lets the masses pick up the bill by 'accepting' ads and having their every movement online tracked. And I like it. I know it's selfish; I'm just speaking my mind. Soon, there will be so many people blocking ads that many websites will simply become pay-per-view, and that's going to be bad for me.

Then we work around that, with a Sci-Hub style approach.

Re: Firefox to Block All 3rd Party Trackers by Default

#87

Post by icebraining »

phkahler wrote: post #78
fimdomeio wrote: post #11

One thing mentioned on the responses that might be really concerning is the fact that this will mean that for a lot of analytics it will look like firefox usage is close to zero. No usage data, devs caring less about firefox, users having more problems when using firefox, less users using firefox, less users having 3rd party trackers blocked, chrome monopoly growing.

Websites can look at their own usage stats. As with some other aspects of this, people will have to actually do some work in-house.

No, they won't have to; they can simply ignore FF. I fully support this change, but to think FF matters enough to force anyone to do anything seems unfortunately a thing of the past.

Re: Firefox to Block All 3rd Party Trackers by Default

#88

Post by userbinator »

wbxrs wrote: post #8

I think this is a bad idea. Even though I personally block 3rd party trackers by default, breaking the web by default will cause problems. Also, ad blocking will start being a problem when enough people start doing it. I still remember the days of no websites yelling at you for blocking their ads. Things are going to get much worse.

I agree completely --- large organisations taking what are essentially political stances basically means war, and the only ones who lose in the end are the users --- because the opponents are just going to find more ways around it when there is such escalation. I wish the browser developers would just focus on implementing specs, and give users the choice of options. This paternalistic "we're doing this for you" attitude can't stop soon enough.

Re: Firefox to Block All 3rd Party Trackers by Default

#90

Post by icebraining »

puffy_magicdrgn wrote: post #68
chkuendig wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can first-party cookies used to track users across multiple properties?

You send tracking events to your analytics/tracking partner from your backend instead of from the browser and they combine the cookie ids.

> and they combine the cookie ids.

And how do they do that? The "advantage" of third-party tracking is that a cookie set by the analytics service on site A gets sent back when the user goes to site B and C and D (etc).

Without that, they have to somehow figure out that user 34 on site A is the same as user 95 on site B. That's often possible, but much less reliable.

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