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Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

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Re: Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

#51

Post by mgamache »

deng wrote: post #16
amq wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if there is nothing to develop for... Chicken and egg problem. However, I think that Windows on ARM will soon become a real thing, this could bring the developers, it will also help the ARM devices spread among Linux users. Regarding what Linus wrote, I do not buy it. There is so much stuff can run without cross-compilation: js and other scripts, java, c#. Also look at things like Android and iOS, you are already…

> However, I think that Windows on ARM will soon become a real thing, this could bring the developers, it will also help the ARM devices spread among Linux users. Windows an ARM has been a real thing for years, and it is horrible. Nobody in his right mind would use this for development.

Windows ARM (Windows RT) has been a mess, but Microsoft is committing more resources to make proper Windows + ARM it a real thing. Will it work? I don't know, but they are trying, probably because of Apple & AWS moves toward ARM.

Re: Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

#52

Post by glenrivard »

The services in the cloud will be what moves to ARM and eventually RISC-V.

So things like Spanner or AWS Aurora.

Everything changes when you have huge cloud providers that have skin in the game to lower cost.

Why you see things like TPUs already. We have barely even got started with the big cloud providers creating their own chips to drive down cost.

I do hope RISC-V continues to come along. It does have the momentum right now to get there.

Re: Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

#53

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

jacknews wrote: post #35

Except that doesn't quite explain why soo many developers use macbooks (OS/X), yet deploy on Linux. Personally I think ARM could be leapfrogged by RISC-V, though it will take longer than people predict.

I'm curious why you believe that. Aside from the hype and the association with the word "open", I honestly can't think of anything interesting or important about RISC-V.

Re: Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

#54

Post by stunt »

enragedcacti wrote: post #10

I disagree with Linus for a couple of reasons. The main one being that not every service in a product needs to be running ARM for it to be useful. There is nothing preventing heterogenous solutions in the cloud and if third parties vet their code on ARM then deploying your DBMS on ARM and your web server on x86 (or whatever services most of your business logic is in) is totally valid for cost or performance reasons.…

> Secondly, it seems likely that there will be ARM MacBooks by 2020, that kind of instant market penetration for arm in the dev space might mean the exact opposite of what he's saying; why would I deploy on x86 when all of my development is on my ARM machine already?

Well, that is not the exact opposite of what he's saying! He actually mentioned that. That is merely one of his points and it is true.

Linux said: "Without a development platform, ARM in the server space is never going to make it."

Re: Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

#56

Post by sitkack »

xoa wrote: post #33

It's of course impossible not to respect Linus' opinion and first hand experience in this space, but doesn't this whole post completely ignore the 100 ton blue whale in the room? Namely smartphones . That's an entire enormous segment of the industry and it's nearly 100% (or entirely 100%?) literally develop-on-x86-deploy-on-ARM. Smartphones also fit > "This isn't rocket science. This isn't some made up story. This is…

Linus is mostly wrong except for HPC. Very few dev pipelines for folks result in native executables.

The vast majority of code is delivered as either source (python, ruby, etc) or bytcode, JVM, Scalia, etc.

And the Xeon class machines folks deploy to in data center envs is a world apart from their MacBooks.

These truths are true for Linus, but not for the majority of devs.

Even those creating native binaries, this is done through ci/cd pipelines. I have worked in multi arch envs, Windows NT 4 on mips/alpha/x86, iOS, Linux on arm. The issues are overblown.

Re: Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

#57

Post by _ph_ »

I agree with Linus so far, as that the old RISC vendors got killed, because there were only a few, if any, offerings for consumers. Less so because of the code migration issues, but rather, because the volume of processor production was to low to compete with Intel back then.

However, there is an elephant in the room today: smartphones. ARM processors are suddenly a huge market, allowing for higher R&D expenses. And basically everyone already owns an ARM-powered device, most developers are actually developing for ARM today when they build apps.

So, and there I agree with Linus again, what is a bit missing is ARM-based desktop hardware. The best thing ARM could do to push their cloud processors would be to make affordable motherboards with their processors available to hobbyists and enthusiasts. But ARM is coming to the desktop anyway, be it through the ARM-based Windows laptops or that Apple builds an ARM-based Mac. And then the x86-architecture will come under severe pressure.

Re: Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

#58

Post by porpoisely »

oblio wrote: post #18
amelius wrote: post #9

> Some people think that "the cloud" means that the instruction set doesn't matter. Develop at home, deploy in the cloud. That's bullshit. If you develop on x86, then you're going to want to deploy on x86, because you'll be able to run what you test "at home" (and by "at home" I don't mean literally in your home, but in your work environment). But developers can ssh to the cloud, and develop there, right?

And he's wrong. In the enterprise, the vast majority of devs are on Windows, for Java for example. That doesn't mean that their deployment target is Windows, most of the time it's Linux. And the development differences, chance of bugs, performance profiles are way different between OSes than they are between CPU architectures.

He isn't wrong since most linux servers run on x86 architecture and obviously most windows desktops run on x86 architecture.

To your last point, if that is true, then what will the differences be when both the OS and CPU architectures are different? I suspect it will create even more headaches.

I don't see ARM winning the server space anytime soon or ever considering how established and dominant x86 is.

Re: Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

#59

Post by throw2016 »

Lots of users mucked around with arm boards years ago untill most realised this wasn't something Arm was interested in with no drivers and those that existed not optimized for performance. It was all a hack with open source developers being kicked like footballs from ARM to SOC vendors and back. Interest waned.

A NUC can be had for about $120 that sips power and has full hardware support for storage, pcie, graphics and is seamlessly compatible with the entire software ecosystem.

ARM is more comfortable with vendors ie soc, routers, nas vendors than supporting an open platform with access to optimized drivers and off the shelf parts. Thus the entire mobile ecosystem is closed and tightly controlled. Even early devboard makers like Odroid have moved to an Intel platform for their latest N1 dev board.

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