Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

realworldtech.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 545 posts

Re: Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

#41

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

amelius wrote: post #9

> Some people think that "the cloud" means that the instruction set doesn't matter. Develop at home, deploy in the cloud. That's bullshit. If you develop on x86, then you're going to want to deploy on x86, because you'll be able to run what you test "at home" (and by "at home" I don't mean literally in your home, but in your work environment). But developers can ssh to the cloud, and develop there, right?

> But developers can ssh to the cloud, and develop there, right?

Then why do they insist on 32GB i9 laptops running MacOS or Linux? One must assume that there is some practical purpose, unless one is rather cynical and believes that maybe the just like shinnies.

Re: Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

#42

Post by scarface74 »

tinus_hn wrote: post #37
rythie wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your second point is just re-enforcing what he said. If MacBooks move ARM, they will have solved developer piece. Since so many developers use Apple stuff, ARM will be native and servers would follow. In the 90s you could see a shift from people having a SPARC workstation in their office for service development, to just using a x86 PC with Linux or Windows on. Then after while developing for Linux/x86 and deploying t…

At least for now, the ‘move to ARM’ is just wishful thinking by developers who think they can shovel phone apps onto the desktop. Unfortunately phone apps on the desktop stink so that’s not going to be a big thing.

Moving to ARM has nothing to do with moving phone apps to desktops.

Almost all iOS apps already run natively on x86 today. When developers use the iPhone simulator they are running natively compiled apps linked against an x86 version of the iOS framework. If all Apple wanted to do is allow iOS apps to run without any usability changes on Macs that would be easy (and ugly).

There are already x86 based Android devices.

Re: Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

#43

Post by titzer »

> Some people think that "the cloud" means that the instruction set doesn't matter. Develop at home, deploy in the cloud.

> That's bullshit. If you develop on x86, then you're going to want to deploy on x86, because you'll be able to run what you test "at home" (and by "at home" I don't mean literally in your home, but in your work environment).

This is why having a compilation target that works the same way everywhere would be so valuable. We're some ways away from this, but I think WebAssembly offers hope here.

As for the rest of the article, it'd be best if we could have a discussion style where people don't preemptively paint people who disagree with them, or who have a different perspective, strategy, or end goal, as "idiotic" and "stupid", or posit that people have a "total disconnect to reality." This is known as poisoning the well. It does not advance the discussion. In fact it is specifically designed to limit and stop the discussion. The reality is that it simply makes people angry and polarized, amps up the stakes, and ultimately leads to a toxic culture.

Thankfully, I think HN has a better culture. Linus can do better, IMO.

Re: Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

#44

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

oblio wrote: post #18
amelius wrote: post #9

> Some people think that "the cloud" means that the instruction set doesn't matter. Develop at home, deploy in the cloud. That's bullshit. If you develop on x86, then you're going to want to deploy on x86, because you'll be able to run what you test "at home" (and by "at home" I don't mean literally in your home, but in your work environment). But developers can ssh to the cloud, and develop there, right?

And he's wrong. In the enterprise, the vast majority of devs are on Windows, for Java for example. That doesn't mean that their deployment target is Windows, most of the time it's Linux. And the development differences, chance of bugs, performance profiles are way different between OSes than they are between CPU architectures.

> That doesn't mean that their deployment target is Windows, most of the time it's Linux.

I don't feel like that's true. I don't have data to say otherwise, but my impression for the majority of non-tech businesses I encounter is that they are very much still Windows shops, and still on-prem.

Re: Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

#45

Post by sam_lowry_ »

rjsw wrote: post #14
amq wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if there is nothing to develop for... Chicken and egg problem. However, I think that Windows on ARM will soon become a real thing, this could bring the developers, it will also help the ARM devices spread among Linux users. Regarding what Linus wrote, I do not buy it. There is so much stuff can run without cross-compilation: js and other scripts, java, c#. Also look at things like Android and iOS, you are already…

I do buy Linus' argument, you need to be able to do native development. My ARM64 development machine is a Pinebook, ARM32 a Cubietruck. Both have only 2GB of RAM and could really do with more. At least the Cubietruck has SATA so mine has a SSD.

I am pretty happy to develop on ODROID-C2 as well.

But we are a minority.

Re: Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

#46

Post by stormking »

rythie wrote: post #30
enragedcacti wrote: post #10

I disagree with Linus for a couple of reasons. The main one being that not every service in a product needs to be running ARM for it to be useful. There is nothing preventing heterogenous solutions in the cloud and if third parties vet their code on ARM then deploying your DBMS on ARM and your web server on x86 (or whatever services most of your business logic is in) is totally valid for cost or performance reasons.…

Your second point is just re-enforcing what he said. If MacBooks move ARM, they will have solved developer piece. Since so many developers use Apple stuff, ARM will be native and servers would follow. In the 90s you could see a shift from people having a SPARC workstation in their office for service development, to just using a x86 PC with Linux or Windows on. Then after while developing for Linux/x86 and deploying t…

> Since so many developers use Apple stuff, ARM will be native and servers would follow.

I think you overestimate the significance of some Hipster Developers. And I type that on a Macbook Pro as well.

Re: Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

#47

Post by deng »

disiplus wrote: post #39
xoa wrote: post #33

It's of course impossible not to respect Linus' opinion and first hand experience in this space, but doesn't this whole post completely ignore the 100 ton blue whale in the room? Namely smartphones . That's an entire enormous segment of the industry and it's nearly 100% (or entirely 100%?) literally develop-on-x86-deploy-on-ARM. Smartphones also fit > "This isn't rocket science. This isn't some made up story. This is…

but with smartphones you don't have a choice. so it's different.

> but with smartphones you don't have a choice. so it's different.

Exactly. Linus' point is that Arm has no real advantage in the server space to compensate for the problems with cross-development. That's completely different for smartphones, which is why Arm won that space.

Re: Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

#48

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

MaulingMonkey wrote: post #21
amelius wrote: post #9

> Some people think that "the cloud" means that the instruction set doesn't matter. Develop at home, deploy in the cloud. That's bullshit. If you develop on x86, then you're going to want to deploy on x86, because you'll be able to run what you test "at home" (and by "at home" I don't mean literally in your home, but in your work environment). But developers can ssh to the cloud, and develop there, right?

Not without an internet connection, not in an isolated testing environment, not without jumping through cloud specific hoops to setup accounts, not without installing your initial ssh keys, not without getting IT signoff for access and/or to spin up more cloud resources with the related charges, not without extra IDE configuration (if even possible, depending on the cloud) or resorting to raw gdb, ... When I want to…

Do people not set up on-prem test and dev environments anymore?

Re: Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

#49

Post by Tehnix »

disiplus wrote: post #39
xoa wrote: post #33

It's of course impossible not to respect Linus' opinion and first hand experience in this space, but doesn't this whole post completely ignore the 100 ton blue whale in the room? Namely smartphones . That's an entire enormous segment of the industry and it's nearly 100% (or entirely 100%?) literally develop-on-x86-deploy-on-ARM. Smartphones also fit > "This isn't rocket science. This isn't some made up story. This is…

but with smartphones you don't have a choice. so it's different.

I’m not sure if this is what you were implying, but I don’t know of any x86 processors that can compete with the Arm processors that are in use, on power consumption to performance ratio. Take e.g. Apple’s A12, which compete with their MacBooks in performance, and assuredly draw much less power.

Re: Linus Torvalds on Why ARM Won't Win the Server Space

#50

Post by scarface74 »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #41
amelius wrote: post #9

> Some people think that "the cloud" means that the instruction set doesn't matter. Develop at home, deploy in the cloud. That's bullshit. If you develop on x86, then you're going to want to deploy on x86, because you'll be able to run what you test "at home" (and by "at home" I don't mean literally in your home, but in your work environment). But developers can ssh to the cloud, and develop there, right?

> But developers can ssh to the cloud, and develop there, right? Then why do they insist on 32GB i9 laptops running MacOS or Linux? One must assume that there is some practical purpose, unless one is rather cynical and believes that maybe the just like shinnies.

There is nothing stopping you from developing on x86 and SSHing to a remote ARM computer for final validation. Cross compilation has been a thing for decades.
Post reply on HN