Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Google Ends Forced Arbitration for Employees

techcrunch.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

211–220 of 293 posts

Re: Google Ends Forced Arbitration for Employees

#211

Post by quotemstr »

sudhirj wrote: post #194
kodablah wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read it as "see, didn't require forming a union to get something done in the tech industry"

Do unions allow competition among union members? It’s always seemed to me that they work in jobs where the people are replaceable. In Google one could work to make 2x to 3x more than the next person - is that will possible with a union? Seems like in jobs where individual talent / skills matter, a union is by definition harmful (unless you’re in the lower 50%). Collective action / protest works fine, though, for esta…

I took a glance at the constitution of the Screen Actors Guild recently as part of a discussion on this topic elsewhere. It's interesting how it features very strong supermajority requirements for going on strike, for imposing a salary cap, and for amending the constitution to remove the supermajority condition.

I wouldn't be surprised to see similar clauses in other union constitutions for fields in which, like tech, there's a large and obvious talent dispersion. I think a majority-rule approach would inevitably lead to the anti-meritocratic policies you're imagining.

[1] https://www.sagaftra.org/files/2015_1002_sag-aftra_constitut...

Re: Google Ends Forced Arbitration for Employees

#212

Post by Terr_ »

anth_anm wrote: post #46
sand500 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure but let anyone do voluntary arbitration not forced.

If two companies of comparable size want to agree to arbitrate any disputes in a contact, that should be allowed. It saves massive amounts of time and money. The problem is the disparity between the parties involved when it's a company and an individual. Forced arbitration also bans class action lawsuits, which weakens individuals even further.

> Forced arbitration also bans class action lawsuits

For me this is the biggest key issue, because it's an attempt to nullify the higher-level mechanism which ought to be preventing abuse.

Re: Google Ends Forced Arbitration for Employees

#213

Post by nullc »

googernettles wrote: post #121

I can tell you with a high level of confidence that this is a Google PR stunt. Google executives conjured up a protest to force their hand acting against the interests of the board of directors and shareholders. Without a forced hand, executives would have been sued by shareholders for breaching fiduciary duties and terminated from their positions. The former executives would also forfeit their compensation packages…

This post was flagged. I thought it was interesting and civilly stated. It may well be baseless or untrue but I think the readers can take it for whatever its worth to them.

If this change were 'orchestrated' to push through an ethical change that otherwise would have been hard to sell then I think that would also have been a laudable act just as well. Executives are also employees and should be free to collaborate with their colleagues for the benefit of all employees.

Re: Google Ends Forced Arbitration for Employees

#214

Post by phamilton »

kerng wrote: post #164
stale2002 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's horrible. I don't want to throw up barriers to entry, in order to keep out new comers. There are many great engineers that I know who would have been barred from the industry, if we had anything at all similar to the barriers to entry in the medical or "real" engineering industries. It is because of this that if there is ever a software union, I am going choose "defect" every single time. I am not going to…

When it comes to development and security engineering a certain demonstrated base qualification might not be a bad thing. It's pretty unbelieveable how quality is handled in software engineering...

When I think about self driving cars I can't help but think about the Therac-25.

Software bugs kill people. Not all software bugs, and not all software, but the lines are getting blurrier. It's not just medical equipment. Phones explode. A connected coffeepot could burn a house down.

The Toyota acceleration bug (where cars would accelerate uncontrollably) was preventable if industry standards were followed. These aren't things you'll find in a Martin Fowler book, there are specific best practices for reliable embedded systems.

Something needs to improve on this front.

Re: Google Ends Forced Arbitration for Employees

#215

Post by hoffs »

40acres wrote: post #25

This has low key been a big year for labor in tech. First we have Amazon backing out of NYC partly due to political pressure from the unions and wins like this vs. Google. Full blown unionization may never happen but the forces of labor are definitely starting to affect tech giants.

The amazon thing was affected by unions the least, the lacking support from authorities and uncertainty about subsidies/grants was major reason.

Re: Google Ends Forced Arbitration for Employees

#216

Post by dragonwriter »

m0zg wrote: post #176
dragonwriter wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't understand. Yes I do. > Google claims ownership even on the stuff that you do on _your own_ time, like nights and weekend On what basis, as a salaried employee paid for work output and not time-at-a-place, are evenings and weekends described as “your own time” any more than any other time?

>> On what basis On the basis that the contract says "40 hours a week". I don't owe the employer jack beyond that.

> On the basis that the contract says "40 hours a week".

It's extremely rare for salaried worker contracts to say that.

Re: Google Ends Forced Arbitration for Employees

#217

Post by vanderZwan »

40acres wrote: post #25

This has low key been a big year for labor in tech. First we have Amazon backing out of NYC partly due to political pressure from the unions and wins like this vs. Google. Full blown unionization may never happen but the forces of labor are definitely starting to affect tech giants.

> This has low key been a big year for labor in tech.

Honestly, I am having my suspicions whether or not that "low key" aspect isn't artificially maintained by the media somewhow. I had heard about the scandals and such last year, but somehow I missed:

> Following the massive, 20,000-person walkout at Google in November, Google got rid of forced arbitration for sexual harassment and sexual assault claims, offering more transparency around those investigations and more.

And I would say that 20,000 people walking out on Google should have been hard to miss.

Re: Google Ends Forced Arbitration for Employees

#218

Post by nitrogen »

na85 wrote: post #191
walshemj wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt that non related work would actually be enforceable

Are you a lawyer?

Some states have laws that prohibit employers from claiming ownership over what the employee does with their own time as long as it is unrelated to the work of the business... but not much is unrelated to Google.

Re: Google Ends Forced Arbitration for Employees

#219

Post by icebraining »

aiiane wrote: post #200
m0zg wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People seem to not quite get this, so I'll try to be as clear as I can. Google should not have the ability to claim ownership on unrelated work that does not use company time or resources unless _I_ _voluntarily_ relinquish such ownership. Google should have no business whatsoever interfering with what I do on my own personal time. Nor should I have to make anything open source. Nor should I need to ask anyone's _per…

What is "company time" for a salaried employee that doesn't have required working hours?

It's the time spent working for the company.

Re: Google Ends Forced Arbitration for Employees

#220

Post by ovi256 »

aiiane wrote: post #200
m0zg wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People seem to not quite get this, so I'll try to be as clear as I can. Google should not have the ability to claim ownership on unrelated work that does not use company time or resources unless _I_ _voluntarily_ relinquish such ownership. Google should have no business whatsoever interfering with what I do on my own personal time. Nor should I have to make anything open source. Nor should I need to ask anyone's _per…

What is "company time" for a salaried employee that doesn't have required working hours?

Come on, then it's a straight down slope to the company owns all intelectual output. Write a sonnet for a lover ? Bam, it owns it.

If it wasn't planned through the usual company command-and-control chain of command, it obviously should be outside company time when you're at home.

Post reply on HN