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COI – Chat Over IMAP

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Re: COI – Chat Over IMAP

#201

Post by LMMojo »

cvwright wrote: post #166
ppjet6 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jeremie Miller, 1999: > "Jabber is a new project I recently started to create a complete open-source platform for Instant Messaging with transparent communication to other IM systems(ICQ, AIM, etc). Matthew Hodgson, 2019: > I think they missed the the bit where Matrix is called Matrix because it bridges (matrixes) the existing networks (Slack, IRC, Telegram, Discord, XMPP, etc) in, rather than needing to convince eve…

If everyone shared your (lack of) optimism, then we'd still be stuck with: * Wonky unwieldy hypertext systems instead of the WWW * The Nomad instead of the iPod * The Blackberry instead of the iPhone * GNU Hurd instead of Linux * Geocities instead of Facebook (-- OK maybe that one's a wash :-) The point is, sometimes it's worth trying again until you can make it work.

I don't ever remember being 'stuck' with GNU Hurd. It was a "non-product" with a little more evidence of progress than Duke Nukem Forever. Back in those days, I used SunOS (later Solaris), HP-UX, DEC Ultrix, IBM AIX, Tandem Guardian and SGI Irix.

Re: COI – Chat Over IMAP

#203

Post by LeoPanthera »

BlackLotus89 wrote: post #105

E-Mail got extended as much as it could and COI doesn't change anything about it. If you want something like COI you can use deltachat https://github.com/deltachat/deltachat-android I couldn't find any specification about anything (encryption, contacts, group-chats,...) and the worst part is that it doesn't even solve the arbitrary problems it poses itself. privacy? Fat chance when you use E-mail. "big bad providers"…

> If you want something like COI you can use deltachat

COI is deltachat.

https://fosdem.org/2019/schedule/event/chat_over_imap/

Re: COI – Chat Over IMAP

#204

Post by jjrh »

fock wrote: post #194
jjrh wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean? Unless you're using a very old client like pidgin, this stuff shouldn't be a problem.

well, I'm open to client suggestions (and to public servers, where I can try them out too). I was told by Google (tm) that gajim should be one of the most feature-complete clients on the desktop. tried it with conversations on the phone. group messages go into some archive-window (instead of showing up in the chat window like in every over program), sometimes the archive misses them... pictures are a link to the serv…

> group messages go into some archive-window (instead of showing up in the chat window like in every over program), sometimes the archive misses them...

Not sure what that even means. Worth reporting.

> pictures are a link to the server, so I have to manually download them all.

I think you need to install the image preview plugin.

For gajim make sure it's a recent version. Dino-im https://dino.im/ is decent. poezio https://poez.io/en/ if you want a text client. converse.js https://conversejs.org/ for a web client.

Public server wise I don't have any recommendations (but i'm sure others have plenty) other than movim. https://movim.eu/#try they have a baked in client (and do a whole bunch of other stuff like micro blogging) but once you have a account, there is no reason you can't use any client you want.

Encryption with omemo is a issue and usability could be improved (I believe people are working on that).

Re: COI – Chat Over IMAP

#205

Post by jjrh »

vbezhenar wrote: post #196
SamWhited wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention that it's just re-solving all the same problems other messaging protocols (XMPP, IRC, etc.) spent time solving 10+ years ago. I always feel that the Matrix organization is a bit disingenuous. Not only are they not developed by any recognized standards body (meaning they have no long-term sustainable funding model), but if they really just wanted to connect all the other chat protocols and make sure eve…

Jabber is dead. Apparently it was either bad enough or complex enough to prevent creating good clients and servers. Matrix is another chance to kill Whatsapp and Telegram and replace proprietary software used by billions with free software. I'm not sure if it'll be successful, I think that implementations are not there yet and momentum might be lost when they will be there. But Jabber won't recover and we should try,…

There are quite a few very large XMPP deployments in industry. I'd hardly call it dead. As a protocol it's alive and well.

Re: COI – Chat Over IMAP

#206

Post by ndnxhs »

LMMojo wrote: post #201
cvwright wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If everyone shared your (lack of) optimism, then we'd still be stuck with: * Wonky unwieldy hypertext systems instead of the WWW * The Nomad instead of the iPod * The Blackberry instead of the iPhone * GNU Hurd instead of Linux * Geocities instead of Facebook (-- OK maybe that one's a wash :-) The point is, sometimes it's worth trying again until you can make it work.

I don't ever remember being 'stuck' with GNU Hurd. It was a "non-product" with a little more evidence of progress than Duke Nukem Forever. Back in those days, I used SunOS (later Solaris), HP-UX, DEC Ultrix, IBM AIX, Tandem Guardian and SGI Irix.

The point is no one would try to make Linux because someone already tried hurd

Re: COI – Chat Over IMAP

#208

Post by 5166cc9c39fa61 »

cvwright wrote: post #166
ppjet6 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jeremie Miller, 1999: > "Jabber is a new project I recently started to create a complete open-source platform for Instant Messaging with transparent communication to other IM systems(ICQ, AIM, etc). Matthew Hodgson, 2019: > I think they missed the the bit where Matrix is called Matrix because it bridges (matrixes) the existing networks (Slack, IRC, Telegram, Discord, XMPP, etc) in, rather than needing to convince eve…

If everyone shared your (lack of) optimism, then we'd still be stuck with: * Wonky unwieldy hypertext systems instead of the WWW * The Nomad instead of the iPod * The Blackberry instead of the iPhone * GNU Hurd instead of Linux * Geocities instead of Facebook (-- OK maybe that one's a wash :-) The point is, sometimes it's worth trying again until you can make it work.

Those are some really good examples of the opposite of what you intended to say.

> * Wonky unwieldy hypertext systems instead of the WWW

Which ones? Gopher wasn't hypertext, but it is still going and still a good idea. A conversion to Gopher would be a huge usability and accessibility upgrade for many current websites.

> * The Nomad instead of the iPod

iTunes is garbage. iPods sucked until (certain models) had Rockbox ported to them.

> * The Blackberry instead of the iPhone

How about the Nokia n900 instead?

> * GNU Hurd instead of Linux

I'm "stuck" with BSD. Send help?

Ambitious projects are cool and should be encouraged. Being an ignoramus about existing developments (not saying that that is what the people behind Matrix are doing) and getting distracted by anything that claims novelty should not be. Hoare had a great bon mot about this: "Here is a language [Algol 60] so far ahead of its time, that it was not only an improvement on its predecessors, but also on nearly all its successors."

Re: COI – Chat Over IMAP

#209

Post by fock »

jjrh wrote: post #204
fock wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well, I'm open to client suggestions (and to public servers, where I can try them out too). I was told by Google (tm) that gajim should be one of the most feature-complete clients on the desktop. tried it with conversations on the phone. group messages go into some archive-window (instead of showing up in the chat window like in every over program), sometimes the archive misses them... pictures are a link to the serv…

> group messages go into some archive-window (instead of showing up in the chat window like in every over program), sometimes the archive misses them... Not sure what that even means. Worth reporting. > pictures are a link to the server, so I have to manually download them all. I think you need to install the image preview plugin. For gajim make sure it's a recent version. Dino-im https://dino.im/ is decent. poezio h…

Hey, thanks a lot, those clients look really quite great (and polished). Still, if you look at movim you imho experience the problem of the whole open XMPP-ecosystem. Somehow nobody cares for getting other people to support their features and in the end everything moves closed-source. At this point I think this really is a problem of years of standardizing new features and a lot of projects being sold under the label XMPP being 10 years behind on those features. In theory XMPP today (together with jingle?-based mediation of a jitsi-videobridge) is ready for everything. But in practice I didn't find 2/3 clients you recommended (google+xmpp-foundation site).

EDIT: featured on HN https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16948597. Look at the comments and you understand why I'm not the only one thinking, the UX is bad...

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