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American Airlines Has Cameras in Their Screens Too

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Re: American Airlines Has Cameras in Their Screens Too

#81

To me this is just a distraction. Yes there's a hardware camera. I will bet some money that they have not been used nefariously by AA or SQ. Some are raging about the non-existant theoretical privacy violation (again, not 100% non-existant, but I will bet money there's no surveillance through this camera), meanwhile we are ignoring actual privacy violations being done by e.g. Facebook or Twitter, or the millions of a…

meanwhile we are ignoring actual privacy violations being done by e.g. Facebook or Twitter, or the millions of ad networks

I'm not sure who you think is ignoring these issues. They're in the mainstream news, and on HN almost every day.

Re: American Airlines Has Cameras in Their Screens Too

#82
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I'm walking around, say, the Grand Canyon, you know, up top looking down. If someone is walking around filming a travel vlog and I happen to get filmed, ok, so what? Right? But if they run up and shove the camera in my face without asking for permission, that becomes rude and I should absolutely have some say in it. If I'm in an airline, I should have some say if there's going to be a camera facing me the ... enti…

Depends in what country you are. Don't need your permission in the USA or the UK.

IANAL.

In the USA, it depends on jurisdiction and the circumstances. For example, CA is a "two-party consent" state, meaning that to record another party requires their knowledge and consent in some circumstances. This case (a camera in the back of an airline seat) is a bit on the line: the space isn't terribly private (it's a row of seats on an airline), yet a private conversation might be had in a low voice between two people, who did not see, or do not recognize, and were not told that there is a camera pointed right at them.

I do not know if this is a violation of two-party consent. It might not be.

Re: American Airlines Has Cameras in Their Screens Too

#83
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most of these are just COTS Android tablets This isn't quite true. They're not off-the-shelf (COTS) Android tablets - the hardware is custom, especially in terms of industrial design (although the chipset is pretty standard). IFE manufacturers aren't going to OEMs and re-purposing commercial tablet designs. You couldn't use off-the-shelf tablets anyway, because they have lithium batteries in them - and whilst the f…

Thank you for the more detailed explanation! But if this is custom hardware then somebody must have wanted these cameras on there? To what end?

> But if this is custom hardware then somebody must have wanted these cameras on there?

I mean, the explanation could be as simple as "it's semi-custom hardware with the minimum number of changes from a commercial tablet". In that case, it has a camera for the same reason brown sugar is refined sugar with molasses added back in: it's cheaper to stay on the path of high volume as much as possible.

Of course, it could also be a more nefarious explanation. Short of mass surveillance by the government, I can't think of one: it's not like the airlines don't know exactly who is in which seat.

Re: American Airlines Has Cameras in Their Screens Too

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm paying lots of money to be there. It seems like it's in an airline's best interests to not piss off customers by secretly filming them (or even appearing to have the capability to do so), given how creepy it seems to many people. Unlike "completely public spaces", it's not free to be on an airplane. You can vote with your wallet in this situation.

Exactly. Also, it’s techbcially “private” space which means they can record you, but there needs to be a notice somewhere. I’m sure there’s something hidden in the air passenger terms of service or whatever, but still!

It's interesting how the expectation of privacy varies from person to person!

Since members of the general public are in close proximity I generally wouldn't consider an airplane cabin a place where I could have a reasonable expectation of privacy.

In places that are intentionally restricted from view by others, like my own home, a hotel room, etc. I'd have an expectation of privacy.

Re: American Airlines Has Cameras in Their Screens Too

#86
post #2

How can you have privacy concerns in a completely public space?

I think the people who disagree with this reply should explain their reasoning. You're in public on an aircraft, you have no reasonable expectation of privacy. The people around you, including the airline's staff, can listen to your conversations/see you. I'm not even arguing legally, even just in terms of common sense, everything you do or say is isn't private in those circumstances. So a camera being there (regardl…

>I'm not even arguing legally, even just in terms of common sense, everything you do or say is isn't private in those circumstances. So a camera being there (regardless of if it is used) isn't moving the needle either direction.

You already have a number of replies covering some good ground, but there is a word covering the feeling I don't see yet: stalking. There is a fundamental difference in feeling (and a legally recognized one as well) between being seen/heard a specific coincidental instances by a crowd of random strangers whom one might quite reasonably expect to never encounter again in their entire lives -versus- having a single person individual or organization conduct persistent surveillance of you. This isn't some weird obscure situation either is it? The uncomfortableness level seems to be pretty universal. The other unrelated passengers on the airplane are generally going to be an entirely random and diverse group of total strangers. They're unlikely to remember you, to care, or to have any particular interest in you, let alone the ability and volume of information necessary to affect you.

But the airliner is a singular entity, and in this instance it's actually fairly illuminating to apply the "personhood" idea to it and consider it as if a single powerful person was following you and recording you constantly. That person does have a direct economic interest in you, may wield a certain level of monopoly power depending on location, or alternately can easily potentially collaborate with a small number of other "persons" with your information. The person will not forget and can follow you over decades. They can do the same to friends, relatives and acquaintances, drawing inferences and information from higher level social network graphs that would not be discernible from a small given slice.

Now you might not care about this yourself, but you should still be able to recognize that it's something quite different then merely "being in public amongst instantiated strangers". Historically it has been perfectly reasonable from an information theory point of view to have a certain expectation of common likely "anonymity in a crowd", because it's not physically possible for a single human to remember tens of thousands of people. Historically when attempts have been made to use some minimal level of technology and large numbers of bodies to implement mass surveillance and centralized recording an analysis it has made people quite uncomfortable (the Stasi say). There is no reason why advancing technology making it cheaper and requiring less bodies would make people suddenly be fine with it would it?

Scale sometimes brings emergent effects that are a pure function of large numbers. You can't always do a clean extrapolation.

Re: American Airlines Has Cameras in Their Screens Too

#87

To me this is just a distraction. Yes there's a hardware camera. I will bet some money that they have not been used nefariously by AA or SQ. Some are raging about the non-existant theoretical privacy violation (again, not 100% non-existant, but I will bet money there's no surveillance through this camera), meanwhile we are ignoring actual privacy violations being done by e.g. Facebook or Twitter, or the millions of a…

I don't know, there are literal spy agencies out there(like people getting trained to extract information, being paid to do things etc.).

Would be very convenient for them if there were "unused" microphones and cameras everywhere and just tap the one when they need it.

What makes you think that people with full time jobs and careers based on obtaining private information would not be interested in listening to their targets who are sitting on a chair next to their business partner/colleague for hours?

Re: American Airlines Has Cameras in Their Screens Too

#88

To me this is just a distraction. Yes there's a hardware camera. I will bet some money that they have not been used nefariously by AA or SQ. Some are raging about the non-existant theoretical privacy violation (again, not 100% non-existant, but I will bet money there's no surveillance through this camera), meanwhile we are ignoring actual privacy violations being done by e.g. Facebook or Twitter, or the millions of a…

Indeed, I am far more discomforted by the "Google snuck a microphone into products it sold consumers and placed in their homes" than "very visible cameras exist in airplanes which are already operating between the most heavily camera-covered facilities on the planet".

And AA can fix this with stickers. Occasionally a kid will peel one off, but nobody will really care.

Re: American Airlines Has Cameras in Their Screens Too

#89

If you're in a taxi cab the driver will have a camera pointed at them and you, the passenger. You're paying to get transported from A to B. If you're on an airplane you're doing the same thing only paying more and going up in the air. I guess I don't see the issue? Maybe, and I mean maybe if you paid for a plane ticket that had a "private" seat with a door, could this be a gray area.

Planes already have cameras in them. This just offers yet another angle to view you from.
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