Earlier quoted context omitted.
"smoking gun" is an understatement. neo-liberalism: "a modified form of liberalism tending to favour free-market capitalism." The movement has been very right wing, pro-corporate and pro-billionaire since the beginning.
What do you mean by "right wing" here? Do you just mean "capitalist"?
Neoliberalism Is a Simplistic Perversion of Economics
61–70 of 79 posts
Re: Neoliberalism Is a Simplistic Perversion of Economics
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
1 - Yes, numbers are high but by your own source, you can see the rate has not been increasing since 1980. 2 - Hand waving about income inequality is fine, it's an issue.. but what do you think should be done about it? Tax the rich just enough so that they don't leave and take their wealth somewhere else? How do we find that threshold? 3 - Tax avoidance is a law issue, not an economics issue. If it's legal, businesse…
1) Ah, the "the rich will leave!" card. The rich won't leave if you fight the problem under an international flag, and all their businesses will be accounted for. Even if all the rich want to live solely in the Bahama's or Cayman Islands, let them be. If large countries plot together its not like you can't boycott such small countries. Just like almost the entire world has copyright laws. See also #3. 2) The problem…
Re: Neoliberalism Is a Simplistic Perversion of Economics
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not that cynical. I find the whole concept of attributing malice as the primary motive of those whom I disagree with to be one of the most basic (and common) of political failures. No, I think they actually believed what they were saying. They believed the rising tide lifts all boats, and none of them would get swamped.
> No, I think they actually believed what they were saying. They believed the rising tide lifts all boats, and none of them would get swamped. I do too. I think their primary motive was selfish and short-signed motivated reasoning about the effects of their ideas. They ignored how those ideas could harm others because they were so captivated by how they could help themselves.
Re: Neoliberalism Is a Simplistic Perversion of Economics
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, and you are doing it again. "Yet too many economists believe their quantitative tools and theoretical lenses are the only ones that count as “scientific,” ..." Economist want to believe that economics is "scientific", while is clearly not, and you keep hinting that they are "relying on quantitative analysis as prescribed by the scientific method".
Are you saying that the scientific method cannot be applied to economics? :O While qualitative analysis can be considered empirical, it's not something often seen when money is concerned and the stakes are high. Most often you will see papers relying on qualitative methods in the "soft sciences" such as social science. Not to mention "verbal theorizing".. this is the kind of stuff that gets laughed out of real conver…
Re: Neoliberalism Is a Simplistic Perversion of Economics
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
But while those policies didn’t benefit the public they did benefit the people who formulated the policies. That’s the smoking gun. When someone shoots themselves in the foot it is likely an accident. If someone shoots me in the foot and somehow winds up with my wallet in their hands, I’m inclined to think it was intentional.
Are you trying to draw an analogy between market-friendly policies and stealing your wallet?
Re: Neoliberalism Is a Simplistic Perversion of Economics
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
1) Ah, the "the rich will leave!" card. The rich won't leave if you fight the problem under an international flag, and all their businesses will be accounted for. Even if all the rich want to live solely in the Bahama's or Cayman Islands, let them be. If large countries plot together its not like you can't boycott such small countries. Just like almost the entire world has copyright laws. See also #3. 2) The problem…
1 - Ok, so abolish the free market worldwide? Not sure what you're suggesting. Removing incentive structures and high taxation does cause the wealthy to leave. It's happening in the U.K. right now. Who does this hurt? Everyone but the rich. 2,3 - I think we agree here. Unfair loopholes should be closed as they are found on an individual case basis and I even think that Amazon should be broken up on anti-monopoly grou…
Actually, it'd empower the free market, as we'd have more fair competition. Tax avoidance breeds unfair competition. After all, if your competitor is paying tax while you don't, then you get more profit. More profit allows you to invest more, take more risks, do more R&D, etc.
> Removing incentive structures and high taxation does cause the wealthy to leave.
I never argued otherwise; I argued if we, as humanity, fight this problem on a world-wide level the rich have no place to go.
> It's happening in the U.K. right now.
We're not addressing the problem on a world-wide scale right now (AFAICT), and it'd be a process. Not a one day project. During such a process you'll see a lot of rough edges, like with alpha software.
The response: "the plan isn't perfect" is a straw man. Of course the plan isn't perfect. Of course they can move to the Bahama's, Monaco, or what not. It isn't meant to be perfect; it is meant as a first step in the right direction, after which reflection must take place to continue to tackle the problem.
> They didn't come by their wealth through forcibly taking it from poor people. The free market dictates voluntary exchange of goods and services. They are wealthy through a long series of voluntary transactions with the public.
However if they paid their taxes fair and square they'd have less profit, and the little guy who starts their own company would have an easier barrier of entry. Hence, entrepreneurs (for whom you could argue HN is for) would benefit from this climate. Instead, what we have is a few successful ponies who get bought by the big fish.
Re: Neoliberalism Is a Simplistic Perversion of Economics
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
Attempting to reform national health care but thinking it's possible to preserve for profit health insurance companies as part of the mix.
You mean like in Switzerland? [1] I think the mistake here is being overconfident. Most of us (including me) don't know much about heath care economics. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Switzerland
Re: Neoliberalism Is a Simplistic Perversion of Economics
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
Social outcome is a political problem, not a scientific one. We should decide what we want society to look like, and use the scientifically/mathematically understood systems of economics to steer us in that direction. I don't think the market-driven ideals of 1980s economics were intended to deliver the results we are seeing today. They would not have predicted the drastic disparities, or the insecurity of working pe…
> the market-driven ideals of 1980s economics... they're kinda fails On what basis? The share of people living in extreme poverty globally has gone down from 43% to less than 10% since 1980. Global literacy rates have climbed from 70% to 86% in the same period. Global child mortality has gone down from 11% to 4% in the same period. Global life expectancy has climbed from 63 to 72 in the same period. It's ironic that…
Re: Neoliberalism Is a Simplistic Perversion of Economics
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is about the 1,5 million homeless children in the USA [1] It is about the income inequality which has increased since the '70s in the USA [2] It is about tax avoidance in the USA, and increasing taxation for the very rich, and how the discussion about it is being avoided as recently happened on Fox News or at the conference in Davos, Switzerland [3] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States [2…
Your comment is severely lacking in numbers that would indicate market-friendly policies have been a "failure". > It is about the 1,5 million homeless children in the USA How has this number changed over time, compared to previous time periods? > It is about the income inequality which has increased since the '70s in the USA How has the actual income of poor people changed in the same time period? > It is about tax a…
This one i can explain. Whether its ordo-liberalism, social liberalism or any kind of post-1929 liberalism, a market-friendly policy aim to brake cartels, monopolies and remove unfair advantages, and help new companies start even in an already competitive field.
You can easily see how tax avoidance, easier to avoid for big, international, old companies is a failure of "market-friendly" policies. This is not the only point where those policies fail, but this one of the most obvious. Sadly i don't have any english papers on this, but even really old-school liberals (like the ones you can proably see on fox, although i don't know if they invite PhD or lobbyists there) are saying this is becoming an issue.
Also income inequality should never be a problem. Wealth inequality, however, especially when more money is gained from wealth than from work, is. And its easy to fix: less tax on work income, more taxes on wealth/wealth income. There.
Re: Neoliberalism Is a Simplistic Perversion of Economics
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
Once you adopt that line of thinking you can't trust anybody, any arguments, any theories anymore.
Precisely so. Let me give you an example: in medieval times it was taken as fact that the king's authority came from God, that god wanted you to obey, and so forth. That sounds absurd today, but at the time no other point of view was available. The way to see through that belief is to ask, who does that belief benefit? It was in the material interest of the king to promulgate such a belief system regardless of whethe…
My point is: it doesn't follow the results we observe were the objectives those people were expecting. It doesn't make them liars.
But I do agree with you: `follow the money` is a useful compass to navigate those waters.