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EU Countries Back Copyright Reforms Aimed at Google, Facebook

reuters.com

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Re: EU Countries Back Copyright Reforms Aimed at Google, Facebook

#121

Post by anonymou2 »

flexie wrote: post #29
beezischillin wrote: post #3

This is sad and disgusting, our speech is being limited completely unfairly and without our consent and we're being told that it's a good thing. The fact that they're trying to package it as some sort of well-deserved revenge against silicon valley big tech is just tasteless. The EU's big gripe against these companies is their tax situation, if they really wanted to change that then they'd be looking into a unified a…

Don't frame this as a free speech issue. Freedom of speech is as protected in the EU as it is in the US, possibly more. Freedom of speech in Europe is not just an EU question, but also - and mainly - up to constitutions and legislation of the member states. So of course it varies. But there is less surveillance in Europe on what citizens say online, European media is less centralized than American, there are more par…

Try making jokes about Catholic church or Catholicism in Spain.

Re: EU Countries Back Copyright Reforms Aimed at Google, Facebook

#122

Post by gmueckl »

ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #109
gmueckl wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU is not a country and does not have its own laws. Things like this copyright directive will get turned into 28 distict member state level laws. Directives only set the common denominator for these laws. Also, the EHCR is an organization of the Council of Europe which is entirely unrelated to the EU. This is a weaker association of states including Turkey and Russia.

>The EU is not a country and does not have its own laws. Things like this copyright directive will get turned into 28 distict member state level laws. Directives only set the common denominator for these laws. So the EU could have a directive that guarantees freedom of speech across the board? Seems like your just arguing semantics.

Not just semantics. The state level laws resulting from directives are different from each other, sometimes substantially so.

Also, the EU cannot regulate everything. I think that a directive about free speech is not possible. However, there is the Charta of Human Rights that is signed by all member states of the EU that guarantees freedom of speech. Again, this construct has the wrinkle that this charter demands the individual states to uphold these rights. It institutes the European Court of Justice as the highest court in matters concerning this charta.

Re: EU Countries Back Copyright Reforms Aimed at Google, Facebook

#123

Post by DuskStar »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #97
strictnein wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing you've posted is accurate or true. Like, literally nothing. There won't be "10 different versions" of these filters on Github for free. How do you even imagine that will work? There will need to be a constantly updated and massive database of signatures for all copyrighted materials. That's not something that can be done for free and you can guarantee it will have a significant price tag attached Free speech…

Even though you are correct, this issue is still not a matter of free speech. We've had copyright protections for some time, they're now being enforced. I don't agree with it, but neither this is not about free speech or 'media spin' on the story.

If it restricts what you can say, how you can say it, or who you can say it to, it's a free speech issue. The restrictions being "copyright" doesn't change that fact.

Re: EU Countries Back Copyright Reforms Aimed at Google, Facebook

#124

Post by AnthonyMouse »

isostatic wrote: post #59
beezischillin wrote: post #3

This is sad and disgusting, our speech is being limited completely unfairly and without our consent and we're being told that it's a good thing. The fact that they're trying to package it as some sort of well-deserved revenge against silicon valley big tech is just tasteless. The EU's big gripe against these companies is their tax situation, if they really wanted to change that then they'd be looking into a unified a…

6 of the 8 MEPs representing me have consented to it. Are you in favour of direct democracy on every single vote of every single law at every single level of government?

The place where direct democracy works is as a veto. If the legislature passes a law and you collect X number of signatures against it, it goes up for popular vote. If the people don't approve, it doesn't pass.

Then you mitigate populism creating ill-conceived laws, because the legislature has to introduce and pass them first, but then the legislature can't as easily pass corrupt laws because they can be challenged and shot down by the people.

It would also be pretty great if you could challenge existing laws in this way, e.g. for any that hasn't been challenged this way in five years and you get the signatures again, it can be used for repeal.

Re: EU Countries Back Copyright Reforms Aimed at Google, Facebook

#125

Post by stale2002 »

oytis wrote: post #64
dmortin wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you host your German language site targeting readers in Germany outside of Germany? Is it against the law? There are plenty of hosting choices around the world. I don't see why anyone would host a site in Germany with this condition.

I've dug into that topic a bit. The summary is if you're a German resident OR you're making a website aimed at German residents, you might be successfully sued. Where is it hosted, or whether it is in German at all doesn't matter much. There is of course always an option to use anonymous hosting and make it hard to identify you from the website content. Then people whose business is to sue other people on the interne…

> Where is it hosted, or whether it is in German at all doesn't matter much

Well, it matters in that if you don't live in the EU, it is unlikely that they will be able to target you for anything.

People in America don't spend much time worrying about the fact that in Saudi Arabia it is illegal to be gay, so I don't see why they would worry the much about copywrite laws in the EU.

Re: EU Countries Back Copyright Reforms Aimed at Google, Facebook

#126

Post by justanother- »

aikah wrote: post #43
flexie wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't frame this as a free speech issue. Freedom of speech is as protected in the EU as it is in the US, possibly more. Freedom of speech in Europe is not just an EU question, but also - and mainly - up to constitutions and legislation of the member states. So of course it varies. But there is less surveillance in Europe on what citizens say online, European media is less centralized than American, there are more par…

> Freedom of speech is as protected in the EU as it is in the US, possibly more It is absolutely not. That's a preposterous assumption. If it was the case then no European state could send people to prison or fine them for having an opinion, yet look at France, where insulting the president is a crime and denying "official" history has landed people in jail (I don't condone either of these, it's just about principle)…

Yes, in US you wont go to jail. But the companies will beat you down for beeing too laud with their lawyers. US first amandment is just smoke and mirrors. You are allowed to say anything on the other side, you don't dare to say anything as you might get sued. I have lived on both continents and once you look at political correctness/criticism/newspapers you will see that people in states are far less outspoken than in europe. At the end it comes down to the system and who it protects: in europe people - in states corporations.

Anyway, for a proof, just check this thread on HN. People can have their opinions, as long they don't express them. Once they do, and are not in line with majority, they will be punished with -1. The moral of the story, in US there is a mentality where only people strongly over average can express their opinions (mentally, moneywise,..). Everyone can agree or is being beaten down by everyone.

Re: EU Countries Back Copyright Reforms Aimed at Google, Facebook

#128

Post by HelloMcFly »

craigsmansion wrote: post #73
aikah wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Freedom of speech is as protected in the EU as it is in the US, possibly more It is absolutely not. That's a preposterous assumption. If it was the case then no European state could send people to prison or fine them for having an opinion, yet look at France, where insulting the president is a crime and denying "official" history has landed people in jail (I don't condone either of these, it's just about principle)…

It absolutely is, depending on your p.o.v. I know the U.S. is big on their "freedom of speech" since it's one of the few things all citizens agree on, an All American Shibboleth, so to speak, but National Security trumps everything. There are plenty of things you can say at the border that will get you on the next plane back home. There may or may not be people being held in captivity without access to a lawyer for t…

This comment seems like an entirely disingenuous argument for me. I'm sorry if it's not, truly, but it's an argument fit for a Fox News editorial.

> There are plenty of things you can say at the border that will get you on the next plane back home.

Do you mean there are things that non-citizens can say at the border of entry to the US that might prohibit entry into the US? That does not seem like a limitation of free speech within the US to US citizens to me.

> There may or may not be people being held in captivity without access to a lawyer for their speech. We don't know because the proceedings are secret.

What a convenient, non-falsifiable "rebuttal" that takes no position on the matter.

> Someone who practiced his freedom of speech is currently in hiding in liberty-loving Russia of all places.

I'm a defender of Edward Snowden and think it's sad that he has to live in Russia to avoid prosecution. And yet, this doesn't seem like an argument about "free speech" made in good faith, particularly the relative merits of free speech. Which country permits their citizens to disclose highly classified information with not repercussions, however unjust those repercussions may ultimately be?

Re: EU Countries Back Copyright Reforms Aimed at Google, Facebook

#129

Post by stale2002 »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #103
zanny wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about instead of spending billions of man hours and dollars on an antiquated conception like intellectual property when the fundamental assumptions of its premise have changed (primarily, that information was not functionally free to store and transmit instantly to anyone, anywhere) you say "hey, maybe it doesn't make sense to create artificial state run monopolies for an imaginary incentives structure we have no…

Good luck with that debate. In the real world copyright, trademarks, patents, international treaties, etc. and the national laws of hundreds of countries governing those are a reality. This stuff is super complicated. Within the context of all of that, coming up with a pragmatic way forward is the only debate worth having.

But there already is a solution to this in the USA.

The solution is DMCA safe harbor laws, and putting the burden of enforcement on the copywrite holder.

ie, platforms get immunity, and effective non enforcement in all but obvious cases of infringement.

This is the solution that we use in the real world, and it is working fairly well.

And it forces the copywrite holders to be the ones who have to put in the work to enforce things.

Re: EU Countries Back Copyright Reforms Aimed at Google, Facebook

#130

Post by zanny »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #103
zanny wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about instead of spending billions of man hours and dollars on an antiquated conception like intellectual property when the fundamental assumptions of its premise have changed (primarily, that information was not functionally free to store and transmit instantly to anyone, anywhere) you say "hey, maybe it doesn't make sense to create artificial state run monopolies for an imaginary incentives structure we have no…

Good luck with that debate. In the real world copyright, trademarks, patents, international treaties, etc. and the national laws of hundreds of countries governing those are a reality. This stuff is super complicated. Within the context of all of that, coming up with a pragmatic way forward is the only debate worth having.

A pragmatic way forward is absolutely to ramp down the institution over time as obsolete. When the car came out farriers did not lobby the government that they needed their institution protected because that is just the way things are.

Its the same argument that was constantly used in defense of segregation, slavery, imperialism, colonialism, feudalism, the belief in the humors, the prohibition of drugs, why housing prices are out of control, etc - its always "thats the way things are and they cannot change". Which is total bollocks.

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