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Neoliberalism Is a Simplistic Perversion of Economics

bostonreview.net

31–40 of 79 posts

Re: Neoliberalism Is a Simplistic Perversion of Economics

#31
post #8

Interestingly, now that neoliberal is being used as a slur, there's a rising movement reclaiming the term and offering policies that solve a lot of the issues earlier neoliberals went wrong with. Here's one site: https://neoliberalproject.org Also see: https://niskanencenter.org My interactions with these folks have found them very reasonable. They're kind of like reformed libertarians who've learned that we need soc…

Even with a growing number of Democrats willing to identify as socialists (or even leftists) rather than liberals... I haven't yet made the acquaintance of one that doesn't believe in the wide power of a market economy. There's just lots that also believe there are some areas where markets are sub-optimal to wrong because (a) a commons is more efficient and/or (b) it's difficult to impossible to line up incentives co…

Yea, I think you're right that most people believe in regulated markets, but the question is how to regulate them.

A lot of ideas on the Left have government paying for and executing public services (single pay healthcare, etc.), which can work some times, but can be subject to lack of accountability and poor efficiency.

These next-gen neoliberals are more likely to recommend public-private partnerships of various kinds where the government is paying / overseeing the execution by competitive private entities.

Re: Neoliberalism Is a Simplistic Perversion of Economics

#32

"Yet too many economists believe their quantitative tools and theoretical lenses are the only ones that count as “scientific,” leading them to dismiss disciplines that rely more on qualitative analysis and verbal theorizing" Sorry if I don't want to trust the fate of the nation's economy to someone's well intentioned verbal theorizing and 'qualitative' analysis. What could go wrong? (lol) I thought HN liked and trust…

One thing is the metrics and, another, the model that you use to understand the metrics and to make predictions.

The problem is that you can make a model to justify whatever you want.

"With four parameters I can fit an elephant, and with five I can make him wiggle his trunk." John von Neumann.

For instance, metrics tell us that public health system are more efficient, but this is anathema to the "neoliberal mindset" and, therefore, to their models.

That's without taking into account the big interests that are passed as sound economics. Just check who finance many of the think tanks that publish economic recommendations.

We could also talk about development economics and the recipes sold by the IMF.

Re: Neoliberalism Is a Simplistic Perversion of Economics

#34

Headline is clickbait and it's not the article's headline. In practice, on the Internet "neoliberalism" seems to be a word used by people who dislike capitalism and want another abstract enemy to complain about. If you're not doing that, the word doesn't seem very useful? But the folks behind this article seem to want to do educational outreach about economics research and that does seem useful.

Neoliberalism is a word that is used to describe policymakers who seem ignorant of the fact that indiscriminately resorting to "market forces" often leads to undesirable outcomes.

Re: Neoliberalism Is a Simplistic Perversion of Economics

#35
post #19

"Yet too many economists believe their quantitative tools and theoretical lenses are the only ones that count as “scientific,” leading them to dismiss disciplines that rely more on qualitative analysis and verbal theorizing" Sorry if I don't want to trust the fate of the nation's economy to someone's well intentioned verbal theorizing and 'qualitative' analysis. What could go wrong? (lol) I thought HN liked and trust…

Social outcome is a political problem, not a scientific one. We should decide what we want society to look like, and use the scientifically/mathematically understood systems of economics to steer us in that direction. I don't think the market-driven ideals of 1980s economics were intended to deliver the results we are seeing today. They would not have predicted the drastic disparities, or the insecurity of working pe…

> the market-driven ideals of 1980s economics... they're kinda fails

On what basis? The share of people living in extreme poverty globally has gone down from 43% to less than 10% since 1980. Global literacy rates have climbed from 70% to 86% in the same period. Global child mortality has gone down from 11% to 4% in the same period. Global life expectancy has climbed from 63 to 72 in the same period.

It's ironic that you claim they're failing on a "scientific" basis.

Re: Neoliberalism Is a Simplistic Perversion of Economics

#36

"Yet too many economists believe their quantitative tools and theoretical lenses are the only ones that count as “scientific,” leading them to dismiss disciplines that rely more on qualitative analysis and verbal theorizing" Sorry if I don't want to trust the fate of the nation's economy to someone's well intentioned verbal theorizing and 'qualitative' analysis. What could go wrong? (lol) I thought HN liked and trust…

Yeah, I too will trust models built from statistical analysis over "thinking". As a side note, in the financial world -- where being right means making money and being wrong means losing money -- the quants now rule the trading floor because statistics based models run circles around people "thinking" all day long. Qualitative analysis and verbal theorizing.... lol

Re: Neoliberalism Is a Simplistic Perversion of Economics

#37

"Yet too many economists believe their quantitative tools and theoretical lenses are the only ones that count as “scientific,” leading them to dismiss disciplines that rely more on qualitative analysis and verbal theorizing" Sorry if I don't want to trust the fate of the nation's economy to someone's well intentioned verbal theorizing and 'qualitative' analysis. What could go wrong? (lol) I thought HN liked and trust…

You are making a strawman. "the scientific process" has very little to do with economics.

Making a strawman by quoting directly from the article where the author was criticizing traditional economists for relying on quantitative analysis as prescribed by the scientific method?

Re: Neoliberalism Is a Simplistic Perversion of Economics

#38
post #17

"Yet too many economists believe their quantitative tools and theoretical lenses are the only ones that count as “scientific,” leading them to dismiss disciplines that rely more on qualitative analysis and verbal theorizing" Sorry if I don't want to trust the fate of the nation's economy to someone's well intentioned verbal theorizing and 'qualitative' analysis. What could go wrong? (lol) I thought HN liked and trust…

"More fiction is written in excel than in word". Better not to have a model than to follow a wrong model.

Better not to have an economy than to have a flawed economy

Re: Neoliberalism Is a Simplistic Perversion of Economics

#39
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social outcome is a political problem, not a scientific one. We should decide what we want society to look like, and use the scientifically/mathematically understood systems of economics to steer us in that direction. I don't think the market-driven ideals of 1980s economics were intended to deliver the results we are seeing today. They would not have predicted the drastic disparities, or the insecurity of working pe…

> the market-driven ideals of 1980s economics... they're kinda fails On what basis? The share of people living in extreme poverty globally has gone down from 43% to less than 10% since 1980. Global literacy rates have climbed from 70% to 86% in the same period. Global child mortality has gone down from 11% to 4% in the same period. Global life expectancy has climbed from 63 to 72 in the same period. It's ironic that…

It is about the 1,5 million homeless children in the USA [1]

It is about the income inequality which has increased since the '70s in the USA [2]

It is about tax avoidance in the USA, and increasing taxation for the very rich, and how the discussion about it is being avoided as recently happened on Fox News or at the conference in Davos, Switzerland [3]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_the_Unite...

[3] https://twitter.com/rcbregman

Re: Neoliberalism Is a Simplistic Perversion of Economics

#40

"Yet too many economists believe their quantitative tools and theoretical lenses are the only ones that count as “scientific,” leading them to dismiss disciplines that rely more on qualitative analysis and verbal theorizing" Sorry if I don't want to trust the fate of the nation's economy to someone's well intentioned verbal theorizing and 'qualitative' analysis. What could go wrong? (lol) I thought HN liked and trust…

Right, we certainly would never have a global credit crisis, blowup, and ill-justified austerity based on rigorous quantitative financial economics. On the topic of the article: The desire to focus on questioning whether a framework for economic analysis and planning is achieving outcomes for humans that we want isn't properly and morally substituted by 'rigor' papering over one's policy preferences if those human ou…

You're totally right, there are issues. However, I think the current system is better than the alternatives I've heard. I would never claim that it's perfect and I'm always open to slow, small tweaks over time.

The stakes are too high to drastically overhaul or throw out the same system that has resulted in our prosperity over the past 100 years.

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