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Neoliberalism Is a Simplistic Perversion of Economics

bostonreview.net

21–30 of 79 posts

Re: Neoliberalism Is a Simplistic Perversion of Economics

#21
post #19

"Yet too many economists believe their quantitative tools and theoretical lenses are the only ones that count as “scientific,” leading them to dismiss disciplines that rely more on qualitative analysis and verbal theorizing" Sorry if I don't want to trust the fate of the nation's economy to someone's well intentioned verbal theorizing and 'qualitative' analysis. What could go wrong? (lol) I thought HN liked and trust…

Social outcome is a political problem, not a scientific one. We should decide what we want society to look like, and use the scientifically/mathematically understood systems of economics to steer us in that direction. I don't think the market-driven ideals of 1980s economics were intended to deliver the results we are seeing today. They would not have predicted the drastic disparities, or the insecurity of working pe…

I think it's likely that they were intended to deliver the results we see today. The public-facing rhetoric supporting those policies notwithstanding.

Re: Neoliberalism Is a Simplistic Perversion of Economics

#22
post #4

Neoliberal microeconomics is just a model of markets? No model is perfect. All models are all far simpler than reality and probably perverse in some way. If they weren't they wouldn't be useful as models. Don't blame the model, blame the people that abuse it.

Quoth George Box: "All models are wrong, but some models are useful."

Re: Neoliberalism Is a Simplistic Perversion of Economics

#23
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social outcome is a political problem, not a scientific one. We should decide what we want society to look like, and use the scientifically/mathematically understood systems of economics to steer us in that direction. I don't think the market-driven ideals of 1980s economics were intended to deliver the results we are seeing today. They would not have predicted the drastic disparities, or the insecurity of working pe…

I think it's likely that they were intended to deliver the results we see today. The public-facing rhetoric supporting those policies notwithstanding.

I'm not that cynical. I find the whole concept of attributing malice as the primary motive of those whom I disagree with to be one of the most basic (and common) of political failures.

No, I think they actually believed what they were saying. They believed the rising tide lifts all boats, and none of them would get swamped.

Re: Neoliberalism Is a Simplistic Perversion of Economics

#24
Headline is clickbait and it's not the article's headline.

In practice, on the Internet "neoliberalism" seems to be a word used by people who dislike capitalism and want another abstract enemy to complain about. If you're not doing that, the word doesn't seem very useful?

But the folks behind this article seem to want to do educational outreach about economics research and that does seem useful.

Re: Neoliberalism Is a Simplistic Perversion of Economics

#25

"Yet too many economists believe their quantitative tools and theoretical lenses are the only ones that count as “scientific,” leading them to dismiss disciplines that rely more on qualitative analysis and verbal theorizing" Sorry if I don't want to trust the fate of the nation's economy to someone's well intentioned verbal theorizing and 'qualitative' analysis. What could go wrong? (lol) I thought HN liked and trust…

You are making a strawman. "the scientific process" has very little to do with economics.

Re: Neoliberalism Is a Simplistic Perversion of Economics

#27
post #4

Neoliberal microeconomics is just a model of markets? No model is perfect. All models are all far simpler than reality and probably perverse in some way. If they weren't they wouldn't be useful as models. Don't blame the model, blame the people that abuse it.

Neoliberalism generally refers not just to a set of economic theory but to a whole political ideology. A common application is the idea that privatising any public assets and reducing regulation will lead to better service and lower cost to consumers, or that lower company taxes will lead to economic growth, but after almost fifty years of this being the mainstream modus operandi in the west this has basically failed every time we've implemented policy based in the ideology. All that happens is that (in aggregate) wealth is shifted more and more towards the already wealthy. So it's not just a misused model, it's a theory and ideology that says it will achieve one thing but consistently does something else (and generally worse for most of society).

An interesting thing about neoliberalism is that it often purports to just be about 'free-market' but isn't really. It actually relies on Government to create a lot of the wealth which is shifted to wealthy people through privatisation, and relies on Government to protect monopolies, subsidise private sector activity etc.

For example, in Australia we have universal healthcare (basically the complete opposite of neoliberalism) that the right-wing of politics has been trying to cut funding to and sell off for the last 30 years or so, but so far have failed (it's political poison). At the same time, anybody can choose to use private hospitals, and to do that you really need health insurance. But our public system is so high quality that in general most people would rather just use that (the main exception being waiting times for elective surgery given underfunding). So to keep the private insurers in business, the Government brought in a health insurance rebate where they basically pay a quarter or so of your health insurance premium. At the same time, if you make a certain salary, you are penalised for not having private health insurance through an extra tax. So most people earning average wage or above do. This is purportedly to take pressure off the public system, but studies have shown that the public system is actually quite a bit more efficient than the private system here.

This latter scheme is based in the neoliberal ideology. Even though it would be a lower cost to society to just divert that rebate into the public system (where every 10c more goes to patient care for dollar spent vs. the private system according to studies), this way the private insurers are subsidised with public funds.

Re: Neoliberalism Is a Simplistic Perversion of Economics

#28

"Yet too many economists believe their quantitative tools and theoretical lenses are the only ones that count as “scientific,” leading them to dismiss disciplines that rely more on qualitative analysis and verbal theorizing" Sorry if I don't want to trust the fate of the nation's economy to someone's well intentioned verbal theorizing and 'qualitative' analysis. What could go wrong? (lol) I thought HN liked and trust…

Right, we certainly would never have a global credit crisis, blowup, and ill-justified austerity based on rigorous quantitative financial economics.

On the topic of the article: The desire to focus on questioning whether a framework for economic analysis and planning is achieving outcomes for humans that we want isn't properly and morally substituted by 'rigor' papering over one's policy preferences if those human outcomes are at odds with the human outcomes we want. If that makes less sense than I intended, let me simplify: A key part of the scientific method is examination of whether what you are doing is even working.

Re: Neoliberalism Is a Simplistic Perversion of Economics

#29
post #8

Interestingly, now that neoliberal is being used as a slur, there's a rising movement reclaiming the term and offering policies that solve a lot of the issues earlier neoliberals went wrong with. Here's one site: https://neoliberalproject.org Also see: https://niskanencenter.org My interactions with these folks have found them very reasonable. They're kind of like reformed libertarians who've learned that we need soc…

Even with a growing number of Democrats willing to identify as socialists (or even leftists) rather than liberals... I haven't yet made the acquaintance of one that doesn't believe in the wide power of a market economy. There's just lots that also believe there are some areas where markets are sub-optimal to wrong because (a) a commons is more efficient and/or (b) it's difficult to impossible to line up incentives co…

Maybe that's a notable fact because markets are equivocally equated with capitalism. Mutualism[1] is also a socialist economic theory and is a form of market socialism[2]

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutualism_(economic_theory)

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_socialism

Re: Neoliberalism Is a Simplistic Perversion of Economics

#30
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's likely that they were intended to deliver the results we see today. The public-facing rhetoric supporting those policies notwithstanding.

I'm not that cynical. I find the whole concept of attributing malice as the primary motive of those whom I disagree with to be one of the most basic (and common) of political failures. No, I think they actually believed what they were saying. They believed the rising tide lifts all boats, and none of them would get swamped.

But while those policies didn’t benefit the public they did benefit the people who formulated the policies. That’s the smoking gun. When someone shoots themselves in the foot it is likely an accident. If someone shoots me in the foot and somehow winds up with my wallet in their hands, I’m inclined to think it was intentional.
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